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Adept Appraisal
1623 Posts |
 Posted - 07/06/2009 : 08:44:52 AM
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Regarding professional business relationships, established via free market means, Hopland suggests:
"It's a conflict of interest, plain and simple, and should never have been allowed."
And he thinks I have issues. You are so wrong, SO WRONG, that the above statement has now become the measuring bar.
Dave... |
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Hopland
4126 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 08:51:20 AM
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quote:
Greg so much more goes on that you know. Trust me, the current system is not working.
Why would you assume there so much more than I know. For one thing you don't know what I know and for another I know enough or can reason well enough to post supportable and credible opinions.
I've been in the business 10 years. My brother Jeff has been in the same business almost twenty years. Our dad has been in the business since the mid-1960's. Mom was in the business for a few years in the 60's but it didn't work out for her.
Borrower's cannot be involved with selecting or hiring the appraiser. That's an even more obvious conflict of interest.
A positive thing HVCC has done (and on first glance it seems like a negative thing) is to expose the AMC's for what they are and what they have been doing. They needed "fixing" long before HVCC and it appears HVCC may have be leading to necessary changes in the AMC model.
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ritabradley01
4945 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 08:54:18 AM
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My appraisal license lapsed in Jan 09. It will take next to no effort for me to un-lapse it, it's just not a priority right now.
My California real estate license is still active. I'm still active in the real estate field unlike some angry, retired men that have posted under various screen names here.
I agree that some changes need to take place. I do understand your concerns. I just don't think LOs should be ordering appraisals. I don't think borrowers should either. It needs to be someone that doesn't have a commission riding on the results. |
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Hopland
4126 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 09:01:25 AM
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quote:
It will take next to no effort for me to un-lapse it,
Pay the fees (three or four hundred dollars?) and complete any CE requirements. |
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amars
121 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 09:05:02 AM
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| I just have my appraiser on the approved list of appraiser. When I order a appraisal with my lender my appraiser gets chosen every time. I have comps checks and he tells me if he can hit the value before I order it. Many lenders are doing this. |
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Hopland
4126 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 09:08:34 AM
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| lol... sure. |
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Adept Appraisal
1623 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 09:13:33 AM
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Not funny, Greg.
"I have comps checks and he tells me if he can hit the value before I order it. Many lenders are doing this."
See? This will never work, ever.
Until people are FINED, and until you see a few licenses REVOKED, guess what? All that's happening now is that HARD WORKING PEOPLE, HONEST PEOPLE,ARE GETTING THE SHAFT.
But it was all "necessary," according to Greg.
Dave... |
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ritabradley01
4945 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 10:31:09 AM
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Btw Drigotas, I didn't fail as an LO. The company that I worked with (part time) changed direction in that they decided to do loan mods instead of loans. After much research and soul searching as well as a couple of loan mod sign ups, I decided I didn't want to be be involved with them. I have looked into other loan mod companies a couple of times since then to see if they had a service I felt comfortable offering but just haven't felt comfortable with any of the setups.
As far as being a player, that's the furthest thing from my mind. I'm just trying to take care of my family and share my opinions on serious topics that concern me. A player conjures up images of someone who takes advantage of people. Furthest thing from my mind-that's one reason I haven't been doing loan mods. I think the main players I'm aware of are those who participate in unethical broker/appraiser relationships and those that sign people up for loan mods that can't be done.
As far as my not "knowing all about appraisals" you're giving your ignorance away. 30 year appraisers are still learning all the time-no one knows all about appraisals-it's a complex field. I don't have to know all about appraisals to have an opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by frank drigotas jr
" You're bordering on libel"
Rita, above
To threaten libel on an internet forum is to wave a noodle sword.
To intimate that you know all about appraisals when you are not a licensed appraiser is posturing without the earned right.
How about this for libel? I think Rita failed as a mortgage LO, and couldn't get licensed as an appraiser. I don't know what her role is in her "company" but it cannot be pivotal.
She wants to be a player, whatever that is in her mind.
dollar
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Adept Appraisal
1623 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 10:32:46 AM
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Rita wondered:
"Wish I knew why you were on this board?"
Same could be asked of you. |
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Hopland
4126 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 10:37:53 AM
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quote:
Until people are FINED, and until you see a few licenses REVOKED,
Fined or revoked for what, exactly? Another question for you to "gravitate" around. |
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ritabradley01
4945 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 10:42:00 AM
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To discuss a topic I'm concerned about-you didn't mind my being here when I was in agreement with you.
quote:
Originally posted by Adept Appraisal
Rita wondered:
"Wish I knew why you were on this board?"
Same could be asked of you.
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Hopland
4126 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 10:47:39 AM
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Still gravitating I see.
A simple solution like "fine and revoke" should not be difficult to explain. Please explain.
BTW... I presume your expectation is that "the government" will be in charge of this. |
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ritabradley01
4945 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 10:56:05 AM
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Greg you mentioned before that more licensees in California are being sanctioned so maybe SOME enforcement is happening. I agree with most here that there needs to be more of this. It should be a priority-it should be paid for with tax dollars. Not just for appraisers either. When freedom is abused, gov has to step in.
I would have preferred to see this rather than HVCC but the fed and state govs won't spend the money to do it so we're stuck with HVCC.
quote:
Originally posted by Hopland
quote:
Until people are FINED, and until you see a few licenses REVOKED,
Fined or revoked for what, exactly? Another question for you to "gravitate" around.
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frank drigotas j
3871 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 11:00:39 AM
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Note that Rita never has explained what she does as an unlicensed/lapsed appraiser.
dollar |
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ritabradley01
4945 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 11:05:18 AM
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Sorry I'm not going to fall into your trap Frank. This is really starting to seem like a personal attack.
How about sticking to the topic? Do you feel the market would have corrected the appraisal inflation issue without interference? Do you feel there should be more enforcement by state boards? Please share your opinion with us. Do you have any ideas for a solution? I would love to dialogue about it.
I'll be back later to check in. |
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Hopland
4126 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 11:10:31 AM
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The state doesn't really have a horse in the race with regard to mortgage lending. It isn't (or hasn't been) the state's responsibility to protect citizens from lenders. But the state does have a horse in the race in ensuring that the state can participate in federally related lending and borrowing. We'd shrivel up and blow away if we were excluded. The purpose of state appraisal regulatory agencies (like OREA) is to ensure compliance with FIRREA which allows the state to participate in federal lending. It is an administrative branch of a larger agency. It is self funded by licensing fees and fines. The funding is only enough to allow minimal compliance with federal lending laws. In order to enforce at the levels suggested by Dave, ZF and others a massive injection of money and an ongoing source of funding at that level would be necessary. Who is going to pay for this? And it still wouldn't be enough to make a dent in the tens of thousands of appraisals that occur each year just on the lending side. What about all of the other appraisals that get made each year?
To capture a meaningful number of appraiser scofflaws it would take a Soviet-style bureaucracy... for each of the 50 states as well as Puerto Rico. |
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Hopland
4126 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 11:28:53 AM
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My brother Jeff let his license lapse. His Real Estate license and NAR membership too.
He didn't suddenly unlearn everything by not paying the dues. |
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Hopland
4126 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 11:38:35 AM
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Here's what I think:
Dollar's, ZF's, lemeuss's, ShamWow's and many other outposter's personal opinions of appraisers is so jaundiced and their understanding of real estate valuation so limited that they are not judging current events objectively.
Adept just wants his business back.
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Hopland
4126 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 12:16:02 PM
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| When it comes to opinions, there can be no wrong. |
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Adept Appraisal
1623 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 12:33:15 PM
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More stupidity, my God.
Any person having an opinion without having considered the facts may very well be 180 degrees wrong. How do you come up with such drivel, anyway...?
By definition, by philosophical definition, opinions can either be correct, incorrect, or unresolved. There are no other choices, unless variables of time are thrown in and said opinion may HAVE been correct at one point but no longer is due to change in circumstance.
You are confusing opinions with personal preferences. |
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ritabradley01
4945 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 1:21:52 PM
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opinion:
a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty |
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Adept Appraisal
1623 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 1:48:15 PM
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You could have said an opinion is an appraisal, too.
Opinions can either be true, false, or inconclusive, or true and false depending on the time frame. (You're using a dictionary, I am speaking philosophically.) Opinions may not have been proven to you yet, but that does not make them untrue, either.
Example:
"I believe Elvis is still alive."
You may hold such an opinion - many 'Flat Earthers' cling to the belief that the Earth is flat, too - but Elvis IS *either* alive or dead, regardless of your opinion on the matter. My opinion? He's dead. (Expect many loons to say the same nonsense with Michael Jackson, too. He'll never be dead enough for a lot of people out there.)
Facts are necessary to solidify and ultimately alter opinions from *mere* opinion to confirmed reality (in matters other than personal preference), we have them here, with regards to the issues we're discussing, NOTHING is up to opinion here. What we're *really* talking about is yours, Greg's and maybe a handful of others in all of America, personal preferences regarding HVCC at this point in time, but not opinions in terms of what it is, why it is, and why it is wrong.
HVCC, why it was formed, what it is now doing, why it is a disaster, etc., has NOTHING to do with opinion. It has only to do with FACTS.
Facts:
*You didn't get to weigh in on it, it weighed in on us.
*It has, and will continue to do so, result in appraisals go to the lowest bidder when humanely possible.
*It is not a choice of free market, but one of greedy lenders, who conspired with quasi-governmental agencies, who have conspired with even more people with deep pockets. (If you haven't yet read the Rolling Stone piece on Goldman Sachs then don't even try to rebut that statement, you're not qualified.)
*Congress recognizes that regulation is getting insane, and is not the answer, it will only get worse, which is EXACTLY why the HVCC moratorium is a BI-PARITSAN effort, not a one sided effort.
I could go on, but it won't mater, nothing ever does. You have a personal preference due to you hating anyone ordering appraisals with any vested interest, and I understand that. BUT.. I don't care. I choose my mechanics and doctors for that very same reason, I want the best for me, and am VERY interested in the best outcome I can possibly achieve. You simply cannot understand that these two situations are very much the same.
FREE MARKETS must decide, and LAWS must be made NOT regulations that create more useless overhead and non-value added spreading of the wealth. I know you don't get that, I understand that, but please stop asking me for my solutions over and over when I've already given them dozens of times.
Opinions are like bellybuttons, we all have them, most think theirs are right, few base them off facts available, and that's all I am saying here. You certainly aren't, Rita, your argument is based on one thing: You don't trust people.
Well, guess what? NEITHER DO I. So, make laws, forgo useless overhead and needles regulations. People will straighten up.
Dave... |
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ritabradley01
4945 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 1:52:37 PM
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| Too many people to straighten up. |
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Adept Appraisal
1623 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 2:01:31 PM
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No ma'am, no way. CHiPS does it everyday for you, and we don't need as many to oversee our (respective) trades. And the fines would be considerably more profitable for all states involved than those traffic violations, I might add.
I don't live in a Post Modern world, a world where you you say thee are only these opinions floating around. I say we have facts, I say we can know the truth. Same knowledge of the truth that holds my faith together, I might add. (Ann and Greg can go barf if they feel so moved.) I am not of the opinion that Christ is a mere man, for example, I know Him to be Who He was, and Is. For me there is no variance of truth there, nothing is left up to my opinion, and I hope there is none for you, either.
You see, you're using the word opinion in a most favorable way for your argument, and I am not going to grant you that, not given what I know about the players behind the scenes. This was a mass manipulation, and it should never, EVER, be tolerated by red blooded Americans.
Dave... |
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ritabradley01
4945 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 2:18:41 PM
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I have said for a long time that I don't like the way HVCC has been implemented and the way some AMCs have been allowed to dominate through their owners that are lenders.
I just don't want to see things go back to the way they were. I'm glad brokers can't order appraisals anymore because it was pure crapola. Most of the appraisals weren't worth the paper they were written on but no one was complaining because everyone was making money. Now that the crappy appraisals aren't favoring them, they want to complain.
There was a relatively small handful of appraisers that cared about quality and honesty, even back then and those are the people I can relate to and want to associate with.
The appraisers that are just coming out of the woodwork now to complain about HVCC, I have no use for. Same goes for the brokers and real estate agents that suddenly care about 1. how far away the appraiser traveled to get to the property 2. how much experience the appraiser has 3. how much pressure the appraiser received from the lender and so on. Things that were non-issues during the boom. |
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Adept Appraisal
1623 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 2:25:35 PM
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You cannot legislate morality, Rita, you know that.
But you can punish law breakers.
No HVCC was ever necessary. It has been, and will always continue to be, about control. The sooner you realize that the sooner the illusion you're operating under regarding HVCC - whether HVCC is right, wrong, needs to be modified, whatever - will be removed.
It is NOT necessary, it never was, not ever. Laws are necessary, they merely need to be legislated, enacted, and enforced.
It's the way things have always been done, no need to change now.
No need to endlessly repeat that you don't want things to "go back to the way they were," I get that, I never didn't understand that, I AGREE with that, ALWAYS HAVE...
...but HVCC is NOT the answer. |
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ritabradley01
4945 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 2:39:42 PM
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| It probably as close as we're going to get to an answer. I wish it were different. |
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Adept Appraisal
1623 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 2:46:17 PM
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See, there you go again.
IT IS NOT AS CLOSE AS WE'RE GOING TO GET.
I have stated before, and will do so here again, I know, for a FACT (not my opinion), that my Congressman is accepting the notion of legal legislation. He *will* present it should the moratorium be succesful.
And any of you could talk to YOUR reps and let the know same as I do mine. These guys WANT to hear from you. They are YOUR voices, don't you understand that???
What are you going to do, Rita, just roll over and accept your fate? My God, I can't even imagine such a way of life!!! |
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hertz
1546 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 2:51:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hopland
Here's what I think:
Dollar's, ZF's, lemeuss's, ShamWow's and many other outposter's personal opinions of appraisers is so jaundiced and their understanding of real estate valuation so limited that they are not judging current events objectively.
Adept just wants his business back.
Here's what I think:
Hopland thinks appraisals are much harder than they actually are. |
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aprilwms
29 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 3:19:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ZF
Real simple. An appraiser should only do the inspection, not the value. The lender should determine the value. An AVM can quickly end all this drama. let the lender pull the AVM, if the property comes in great. Then let the appraiser go inspect the property. This would be a fair system.
So long as the person assigning that value isn't making any commission on it, assume 100% responsibility for that loan, and when that business model fails they dissolve or file bankruptcy and leave the government out of it, fine. AVM's are only useful in a cracker box track neighborhood with a low risk borrower, and that makes up how much of the market? My experience with clients who ordered an appraisal after the AVM is countless times the AVM varied 50% from the appraised value. What happened to the days when the Lender actually assumed the risk and was accountable for the loans it made? |
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Adept Appraisal
1623 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 3:33:02 PM
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GREAT question.
Instead, they make HVCC!!
AAARRRGGHHH!!! |
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Hopland
4126 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 4:09:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hertz
quote:
Originally posted by Hopland
Here's what I think:
Dollar's, ZF's, lemeuss's, ShamWow's and many other outposter's personal opinions of appraisers is so jaundiced and their understanding of real estate valuation so limited that they are not judging current events objectively.
Adept just wants his business back.
Here's what I think:
Hopland thinks appraisals are much harder than they actually are.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
quote:
Note that Rita never has explained what she does as an unlicensed/lapsed appraiser.
Estate valuations. Tax valuations. Litigation work. Consultation. Bail bonds. Market analysis. property inspection. Value a football stadium for a prospective buyer or seller. Anything that is not associated with federally related lending.
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Adept Appraisal
1623 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 4:37:56 PM
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They are catching on, all people involved, as to what's happening. It's only a matter of time. This is from today:
HUD Eyeing Appraisal Management Cos.
National Mortgage News | Monday, July 6, 2009
The Department of Housing and Urban Development is revising appraisal policies to address concerns that have been raised about appraisal management companies, an agency spokesman said.
Appraisers have complained that HUD's restrictions on their fees and lenders' increasing reliance on management companies are discouraging experienced appraisers from taking assignments for loans insured by the Federal Housing Administration, a part of HUD.
"The loss of these seasoned professionals is adding unnecessary and substantial risk to the FHA program," four appraisal trade groups wrote in a July 1 letter to HUD Secretary Shaun Donovan.
The HUD spokesman said the department is working on a letter to lenders "addressing this issue." |
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ritabradley01
4945 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 5:04:13 PM
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Maybe you're right,but I have also heard that FHA will be "going HVCC" sometime before the end of the year.
quote:
Originally posted by Adept Appraisal
They are catching on, all people involved, as to what's happening. It's only a matter of time. This is from today:
HUD Eyeing Appraisal Management Cos.
National Mortgage News | Monday, July 6, 2009
The Department of Housing and Urban Development is revising appraisal policies to address concerns that have been raised about appraisal management companies, an agency spokesman said.
Appraisers have complained that HUD's restrictions on their fees and lenders' increasing reliance on management companies are discouraging experienced appraisers from taking assignments for loans insured by the Federal Housing Administration, a part of HUD.
"The loss of these seasoned professionals is adding unnecessary and substantial risk to the FHA program," four appraisal trade groups wrote in a July 1 letter to HUD Secretary Shaun Donovan.
The HUD spokesman said the department is working on a letter to lenders "addressing this issue."
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Adept Appraisal
1623 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 5:05:53 PM
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| It would appear those rumors were premature, much like the ones claiming HVCC is here to stay. |
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