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texlend
661 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2006 : 05:56:43 AM
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I began doing this recently. I hope it helps you and if you can add to it, please do. I am sure if everybody pitches in we can perfect this concept and expose this unethical practice. Education is key.
After selling your deal, casually mention that the Credit Bureaus are going to sell the fact that we had this conversation and your decision to do a mortgage. There is nothing you can do about it. Be ready for a barrage of phone calls with "Pre approvals". Beware of bait and switch tactics used by some companies. Ask the caller, did I give YOU permission to see MY credit? Our company does not buy "trigger leads" even though we are solicited constantly. We do not feel it is ethical, do you? Then explain what they can do to be removed for next time. |
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CreditTechnologi
567 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 06:26:39 AM
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Great advice texlend
We promote the same defense ( http://www.CreditTechnologies.com/TriggerLeads.asp )
Until legislation can put an end to this abusive process, education really is the only answer.
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Guaranteedmortga
534 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 10:07:12 AM
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| I feel the urge to subscribe to this topic, as we all are in the same boat with more and more Trigger Leads being sold. I think that you have already done about all you can. By giving your clients the heads up. However I don't think you can say the practice is any less ethical than any other lead being sold, just more informed. |
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Secret
3080 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 11:11:13 AM
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| Very good idea! |
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mnorris80
2432 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 11:13:09 AM
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| Incidentally, if I call my credit reporting agency and ask them if they do this, are they required to tell me? It may be in my paperwork anyhow, but it has been a long time since I read up on my terms of use with Acranet. |
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Guaranteedmortga
534 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 11:28:13 AM
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| As far as I know EXP...TRU...EFX all are doing it. Most of all the Lenders I use require a Tri-Merged report. Let me know if you have different information. |
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Scrooge McDuck
15108 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 11:31:32 AM
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how the **** is this even legal?
i bet you could sue for this. |
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loanoptionsgroup
654 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 12:08:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scrooge McDuck
how the **** is this even legal?
i bet you could sue for this.
You can sue for anything. Collecting on it is the hard part? |
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CChase
12 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 12:15:30 PM
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| how can they be removed? I don't know how...... |
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PK
140 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 7:25:47 PM
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Go on this site and sigh your customers up! It opts them out from receiving anything! GREAT DEFENSE FOR THESE TRIGGER LEADS!
https://www.optoutprescreen.com/?rf=t |
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Dominic Garver
1294 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 7:33:33 PM
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| If you have your customers opt out you will need to wait 5 days or so before pulling credit in order for this to be effective. |
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Darin Ferraro
7813 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 7:40:01 PM
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| If it's not disclosed, its not ethical. |
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PK
140 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2006 : 7:49:31 PM
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| D, If that is directed for me? You have to have the customers permission, then they have to sign a form. |
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Guaranteedmortga
534 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 07:30:59 AM
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There is an opt out program that takes up to 5 days to process. But by the end of 5 days your client's contact information has been sold to several brokerages with so called "exclusive" rights for their area. The brokers paying for these Pre-Approved leads, pre-approve these leads not by actually getting the credit information, rather just certain qualifying information. Like credit minimums, trade line history parameters, and other parameters. (FYI:a very uniformed way of doing business) Pretty much the same information you can get from any other lead companies. The difference is 'triggers'. The brokers feel they have an advantage with these leads because every time a credit is pulled in the 'trigger' business of realty, they get real time notification (12 hrs. in some cases) and contact information from what-ever company selling them. While this is a very expensive way of getting leads, a lot of Brokers are willing to pay big bucks for what they perceive as a 'Hot Lead'.
While the I personally build a rapport with my clients, and use a different approach for marketing. I'm really not afraid of these over priced dealers or their clients. Simply put, I out perform the competition, and my clients buy 'ME' not the other way around. |
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PK
140 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 07:43:06 AM
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| Guaranteed, I understand what you are saying, but all mortgage consultants are selling themselves and their service. But it makes it a little easier to look at your goodfaith and undercut your proposal. Then call the customer back and say you are not getting what you deserve or what ever! Not all mortgage consultants live by the code. |
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CreditTechnologi
567 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 07:44:25 AM
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We are now seeing complaints from consumers even if they have used the Opt-Out process more than 5 days prior to the mortgage inquiry. It appears even when properly followed; the Opt-Out process may not be an effective means of protection from unsolicited trigger lead contacts.
Once again, education is the only defense, make sure your applicants are aware of the problem - when properly advised that these other lenders have bought their personal information without the consumers knowledge or consent, they are typically outraged and pay much attention to subsequent pitches.
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PK
140 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 07:47:27 AM
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| It takes an exceptional consultant to get around the fact that this shmuck is gonna undercut your proposal by 1000.00 or 1500.00 or whatever the amount is. Just keep your blade sharp and come to play and win everyday Period! |
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murrayla
1 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2006 : 5:46:11 PM
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Trigger leads are as legal as any other credit scored data which is used to make finance solicitations to consumers in connection with mortgages, auto loans or other consumer loans. Any time you do a mailing to a list of people who meet certain credit criteria it's the same thing - except trigger leads adds one additional criteria - that someone pulled a credit report in connection with a mortgage app within 24 hours. That's what triggers the record appearing on the list. Sounds like a hot lead to me.
Anyone can opt out from appearing on this type of list in the future which would prevent them from ever getting another offer based on their creditworthiness (or lack thereof). Personally, I don't think that's in their best interest. And anyway, when I buy trigger leads, I don't get to see someone's credit report, I just know they fit within certain credit parameters that I work best with and I know they are interested in a mortgage. Let's face it, the market is changing - most of us will need to invest in third party lead generation in the coming months and years. It's competitive out there. |
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badam61
333 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2006 : 6:10:46 PM
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I think it is more unethical that the bureau's sell the info as opposed to us using it...( I dont, I may at some point)...
It has to do with public trust. When I think of Beacon or experian or whoever....I dont immediately think of some "Profit hound" Instead I think of almost a quasi-governmental agency...( I know...nai've)....it just leaves a bad taste for some reason...not quite sure why...
Bryan
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Quicksilver
5940 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2006 : 6:42:46 PM
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| It's pathetic how much they are selling trigger leads now. Lately, I've been having clients who within a couple days are bombarded by a ton of calls. One guy had 18 calls last Weds, nevermind the other days (how many times do they sell these list????? Good thing is I warn them in advance, which helpd b/c then they usually end up telling all the brokers using the trigger leads to f' off as they get even more pissed that more and more are calling, they stay with me no matter if the other guy says he'll beat us blah blah, highly unlikely with us being Bankers, having high volume for better pricing, and low fee's. Just had one customer who said the other guy beat us, told him to check out how he structured it, sure enough he had to charge them a nice amount to buy it down, and it was only slightly below what we had at par. Needless to say he guy went with me. |
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erikwebster
4069 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2006 : 10:35:47 PM
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| This may go against the spirit of this thread but other than Kroll Factual i havent been able to find a good low cost provider of these leads. I would love to do them. Any recommendations as to which companies offer trigger leads within the 5 day period? |
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scottanthony
2993 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2006 : 10:50:34 PM
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| I am actually quite surprised that consumer advocate groups haven't jumped all over this concept. The fact is they are selling private information. It's almost like me surfing the web and I go to a site to buy insurance and my ISP records what site I went to then sells my contact info to all of that sites competitors. Last time I checked, I couldn't order a credit report without the BORROWER'S AUTHORIZATION. How the heck can they sell that crap? |
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texlend
661 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2006 : 06:59:31 AM
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| UPDATE! I had a trigger leads provider call the other day so I pretended to be interested. I asked how the pitch went. He told me that by law, I must say that I have you "pre- approved". This is the only way you can legally use these leads. Does anyone know if this is true? Sure would make a good argument for the next 1003 speech. |
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captivereef
2857 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2006 : 09:28:05 AM
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| I tell my clients that there has been an increase in hijacked credit information. I tell them the only thing not encrypted is name and telephone number and this can be intercepted quite easily duting transfer.I them tell them that there may be potential identity thieves calling them posing as mortgage companies and not to give them any personal information. Most are shocked by this. I follow it up with telling them it has been on the news recently and most are very adiment they will hang up on anyone but me. Its a lie but you gotta fight dirty with dirty players |
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CreditTechnologi
567 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2006 : 10:13:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by captivereef
I tell my clients that there has been an increase in hijacked credit information. I tell them the only thing not encrypted is name and telephone number and this can be intercepted quite easily duting transfer.I them tell them that there may be potential identity thieves calling them posing as mortgage companies and not to give them any personal information. Most are shocked by this. I follow it up with telling them it has been on the news recently and most are very adiment they will hang up on anyone but me. Its a lie but you gotta fight dirty with dirty players
Darin,
While that may be effective in "shocking" consumers - it is not true. Instead explain the truth about the trigger lead process and how their information is repeatedly sold without their knowledge or consent. You will find most consumers are outraged and will pay little attention to any subsequent pitches. It’s also a powerful tool in building the relationship with your applicant – which is reinforced with every subsequent unsolicited contact that you foretold.
More information on trigger leads and how to educate your applicants is available at http://www.CreditTechnologies.com/TriggerLeads.asp
One thing I think we all need to remember. Entries in this forum are quickly indexed by search engines and are available to consumers well beyond the membership of Broker Outpost (Try Googling “Trigger Leads” and see what you get.) I don’t believe knowingly lying to any consumer puts forth a desirable image for the mortgage profession.
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erikwebster
4069 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2006 : 8:41:49 PM
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| This may sound horrible and against the tone of this thread, but other than Kroll Factual I havent been able to find a vendor for this flavor of lead. Does anyone know any halfway decent companies that i can get 5 day trigger leads for my best telemarketers to grind on? I used to use 30 day ones at a previous shop and it was killer response with the script i used. |
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chezwick
2987 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2006 : 9:55:43 PM
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That's the second time you've asked that question Erik. Maybe you got your "answer" the first time?
The proper thing to do would be to start a differenent topic with your request because as you said, it goes "against the tone of this thread."
quote:
Originally posted by erikwebster
This may sound horrible and against the tone of this thread, but other than Kroll Factual I havent been able to find a vendor for this flavor of lead. Does anyone know any halfway decent companies that i can get 5 day trigger leads for my best telemarketers to grind on? I used to use 30 day ones at a previous shop and it was killer response with the script i used.
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scottanthony
2993 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2006 : 10:05:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by texlend
He told me that by law, I must say that I have you "pre- approved".
Which would also be a lie. I mean how could it not? You get the lead info but you don't get access to the credit data or income. If you tell them they're preapproved and they don't get a loan, could you be held liable? |
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govnasteven
1357 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2006 : 01:10:34 AM
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I just heard the headline for these trigger leads on the news for the first time earlier this evening. I guess people are starting to take notice.
What is the going rate for these trigger leads? Are they cheap or expensive? Are they bought directly from the credit bureaus? How many times on average are they sold? |
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texlend
661 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2006 : 05:17:58 AM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by texlend
He told me that by law, I must say that I have you "pre- approved".
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scottanthony
Which would also be a lie. I mean how could it not? You get the lead info but you don't get access to the credit data or income. If you tell them they're preapproved and they don't get a loan, could you be held liable?
Good question scottanthony. I asked him if this was legal and he said only if you are calling with a "pre approval". Same with the CC companies. He then went on to say that if my competitor had them approved, couldn't I match the deal? I was told it was a full credit report as well and since I have never seen a trigger lead, I just do not know. All I know is I was losing deals and did not know why. Since I started educating my borrowers and kind of making a joke about it, they call and report the Trigger leads callers to me after badgering them about not having their permission.
Honestly, this should not be legal and I feel it gives us mortgage brokers a "used car salesman" image that I do not appreciate.
Why is the Mortgage Broker association not doing anything about it? I guess it is up to us to call all of the news stations and show just how "Public" someone's private mortgage research is. I feel that there are enough of us that if we all contacted the "consumer saviors" and acted like we were blowing the lid off of a very unscrupulous act that there would be enough of a public backlash to stop it. Especially since "dumpster diving" is still the #1 credit theft method. Ask your borrower, Do you think the person who buys your info as a "lead" is going to protect it when you decide to close your loan with me? This whole subject needs to be exposed to the public via news media. Someone needs to put together a package and statement that we can use for the local news hounds. I am sure there will be public outrage. Pretty much all of my customers were pissed when hearing the "truth".
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badam61
333 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2006 : 06:04:17 AM
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It's interesting that there are a ton of folks on this post who use the heck out of trigger leads but they're staying silent? (With the exception of Erik of course)...
Trigger leads will be another opportunity to bash away at our profession...you think people are going to take their anger (and they will be angry) out on the Bureaus?.. NOT!...WE will be the face to this issue. And unlike other issues the media is stirred up about, this one is legitimate. |
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jetops
224 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2006 : 7:06:12 PM
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| The only way trigger will go away is if congress changes the law untill then the 3 credit bureau will do what ever they can get away with sell people info. |
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Quicksilver
5940 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2006 : 8:29:10 PM
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What I want to know is how many times they sell the info. I mean seriously, for one of my clients last week to get 18 calls in one day is just nutz. And for you brokers using trigger leads, I don't know how you guys are working them. I warn my clients before hand, so far never lost a deal to the "trigger" sharks. Call up one of my clients that show on a trigger list and you'll geta new a-hole torn from them LOL.
One of these "shark's" was telling a guy I'm working on for a purchase right now that he can get him 100% financing, 5.8 fixed, for 30 years with no buy down or points, yeh ok shmucko. Oh, did I forget to mention he has a 545 median score. My borrower isn't dumb, he understands mortgages and knows his situation, so he's just stringing the guy along for the hell of it to mess with him. |
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AFF
16 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 01:05:17 AM
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Let’s look outside the box for just one second. We are fairly educated on how trigger leads are operated via credit pulls and how our borrowers are bombarded with 3rd party leaches. But what about when we request an appraisal, mortgagee change, and of course a payoff! (I love portfolio retention)!
To break it down for you:
Who's to say that that appraisers and insurance companies don't sell leads as well? Well if they were looking for additional income at least.
One day it hit me, my borrower told me that my "manager had just spoken to her and informed her that my position at my company is pretty much on the rocks for a certain reason that cannot be disclosed and that he was going to assist her in completing the loan for her. She became incredibly upset because she and I have an exceptional relationship and she hung up and called me immediately. I was outraged to find out that some anonymous loan officer had an "ingenious" approach to steal my business and upset my borrower. I did suggest that she speak to my branch manager to verify that my current standing with my company is in fact solid. Well, shortly after I found out that the mortgagee fax request sheet had not my name on it but mistakenly the name of the guy who I sent the request over to. I realized that my borrower kept on saying the "manager" who she spoke to insisted that he was the manager of Luke and that he was going to handle Luke’s files?. My name is David. Luke was the apparent loan officer on the request form which was sold to god knows who but its scary knowing that our names are out there along with the borrowers social and sig. on the borrower’s auth. A loan officer could pull credit, verify personal information and inform the borrower that you are no longer going to be assisting her!!!
Ever since then I have never put my real name on a mortgagee request form!! I warn borrowers about trigger leads and guess what?
I would put names down like Aron G. Minchester and apparently either the manager of Aron or colleague of Aron would call my borrower and insist that they are taking over my files because I sick, on vacation or have been terminated??
Yeap, I notified my 100+ loan officer company and sure enough our LO's were having the same issues. When you use a pretend name on a loss payee request and that name is later mentioned to your borrower guess who sold that information to God knows who?
Don't trust insurance companies.
You guys im sorry for the incredibly long response to trigger leads but I noticed that the replies were only in response to credit companies. It’s incredibly late and I have had several phone calls while sharing my experience so if for some reason my post is a bit confusing or repetitive please forgive me.
David Sokolov
Part of the Midas Group.
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rainmand
5201 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 05:47:48 AM
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The companies selling Trigger Leads are Public companies. All Public companies have a Board of Directors that report to the shareholders. If a large portion of shareholders feel a certain way about a specific subject, the Board of Directors listens and reacts accordingly. If a small portion of shareholders feel a certain way about a specific subject, and are a squeaky wheel, the board of Directors listens and reacts accordingly.
If Mortgage Professionals teamed together and became shareholders, they could form a consortium the Board of Directors would have to listen to. Right now you're on the outside saying "they should stop doing that". You'd have a stronger position if you were on the inside, saying the same thing, and getting the issue on the annual ballot. It'd be easier to get the Press to listen to your concerns too. |
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