| Author |
Previous Topic | Next Topic |
FLProcessor
451 Posts |
 Posted - 08/24/2008 : 8:58:37 PM
|
I would like to respectfully request a somewhat closed-post, limited to people with experience in direct mail. By limiting this post to those people with experience... And by keeping it 100% On-Topic (w/o personal attacks)... Perhaps this will provide a very valuable resource for those of you considering direct mail.
So here's the question.. Recently in this forum, I entered a debate with another poster about the effectiveness of certain types of mailpieces. This poster clearly has experience in direct mail, and his point was that no other mail piece will out-perform a #10, when ROI is the number one factor. What do I mean by "when ROI is the number one factor?" In short, while other types of media (oversized postcards/letters, flats, lumpy mail, etc) can offer higher *overall* response rates, they do *not* offer a higher return on investment, because a #10 is the most economic, barring postcard-style mailers.
We market primary to Florida. As other people who market in Florida will tell you, it's a tough nut (if I can offer any advice, it's not to market *mortgages* in FL, NY, or CA until you've honed your skills elsewhere). In such a difficult market, my personal *opinion* based on experience, is that inexpensive/common techniques such as #10's ... do not perform *as* well as other pieces. With that said, keep in mind there are too many factors, outside of mailpiece design, to talk about #10's as if they are all the same. Despite that, for purposes of this discussion, lets assume all factors are equal.
In short, all other factors being equal… Which is your preferred media? A postcard, an oversized postcard, a flat, a Snap-Pak (automated carbon/W2 style), a "package", a #10, #12?
Raymond, Stephen, Rene Rapalo, Gary, etc -- I'm interested in feedback from others. Lets start with mail piece design. If this thread amounts to anything, maybe we can continue sharing/discussing about other opinions we have -- which don't neccesarily expose anything proprietary/guarded.
Thanks in advance!
|
|
|
|
broker3271
418 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2008 : 9:42:49 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
I would like to respectfully request a somewhat closed-post, limited to people with experience in direct mail. By limiting this post to those people with experience... And by keeping it 100% On-Topic (w/o personal attacks)... Perhaps this will provide a very valuable resource for those of you considering direct mail.
So here's the question.. Recently in this forum, I entered a debate with another poster about the effectiveness of certain types of mailpieces. This poster clearly has experience in direct mail, and his point was that no other mail piece will out-perform a #10, when ROI is the number one factor. What do I mean by "when ROI is the number one factor?" In short, while other types of media (oversized postcards/letters, flats, lumpy mail, etc) can offer higher *overall* response rates, they do *not* offer a higher return on investment, because a #10 is the most economic, barring postcard-style mailers.
We market primary to Florida. As other people who market in Florida will tell you, it's a tough nut (if I can offer any advice, it's not to market *mortgages* in FL, NY, or CA until you've honed your skills elsewhere). In such a difficult market, my personal *opinion* based on experience, is that inexpensive/common techniques such as #10's ... do not perform *as* well as other pieces. With that said, keep in mind there are too many factors, outside of mailpiece design, to talk about #10's as if they are all the same. Despite that, for purposes of this discussion, lets assume all factors are equal.
In short, all other factors being equal… Which is your preferred media? A postcard, an oversized postcard, a flat, a Snap-Pak (automated carbon/W2 style), a "package", a #10, #12?
Raymond, Stephen, Rene Rapalo, Gary, etc -- I'm interested in feedback from others. Lets start with mail piece design. If this thread amounts to anything, maybe we can continue sharing/discussing about other opinions we have -- which don't neccesarily expose anything proprietary/guarded.
Thanks in advance!
I am the person with FLprocessor was having the debate regarding the effectiveness of certain types of mail pieces.
If you want, I could link the thread where we had our previous discussion.
I'd also be interested in knowing where other people get their ideas for direct mail. Does anybody pay one of the supposed mortgage experts for help? I've read a couple of books, and I've tried some of the more "emotional" type pieces that are out there with some prety decent success. For my first round of DM (to completely new customers) I've found that Emotional Direct Response Marketing (Think Dan Kennedy type stuff) generates a high initial response.
Outside of what was said above I feel that, in terms of ROI, nothing can beat a #10 envelope done correctly. I find that on the envelope, if you reference a current event, like "Economic Stimulus of 2008 Information" you intial open rate increases dramatically. Then it's quite simply the matter of the message. I prefer to keep things all-encompassing and very general. Right now One of the things I'm targeting FHA streamlines...but I don't really reference that in the mailer. I specifically tell people if they have an FHA loan and if anyone of the scenarios I list applies to them they shoudl call me immediately. Then I list every scenario I would want to call. The response, in terms of cost per call, is far less then one would pay for any other form of media (print, radio, TV, TM leads, I-Leads, etc.). |
|
|
mortgagemessiah
8003 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2008 : 9:48:14 PM
|
Tiffany,
Email me privately and I'll give you a hand. I have a bunch of targeted pieces plus I have a source that will help you with the lists. |
|
|
Tsnyder
10567 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2008 : 9:51:57 PM
|
I've done direct mail for many years for a myself
and for clients in a variety of industries.
I've tested and tracked just about every type of mailer
imaginable and the one that comes up #1 every time is
a plain white #10 envelope hand addressed with a real
stamp and no commercial message on the outside.
Please understand that the magic isn't totally in the
envelope. The plain white hand addressed envelope will
get opened more often but once opened you MUST have some
very compelling copy on the inside or it will end up
in the trash with all the others.
I prefer a well crafted letter over anything else.
Tsnyder |
|
|
Tsnyder
10567 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2008 : 9:55:10 PM
|
Just to add... I agree with D-Star... the fortune
is ultimately in the list.
As the old saying goes... you can't say the right thing
to the wrong person and you can't say the wrong thing to
the right person.
If you're mailing to the right people you'll get good
response with even a mediocre piece.
Tsnyder |
|
|
peter
6465 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2008 : 10:20:35 PM
|
I have been using 4 X 5 1/2 white postcards, printed out
of my HP All-In-One printer in black and white. I design my
own ad on my word processor and put the ad into a postcard
template before copying them into hundreds of postcards.
My stamp cost is 27 cents per piece, and the cost of my
postcards is minimal as I pick up off-cut postcard leftovers
from the near Kelly Paper plant-store. I paid $10 for about
1000 off cut white postcard papers of which I cut them into
about 700-800 postcards. My average cost per postcard is
about 29 cents per piece. And I mail only 600 cards per month,
costing me $174 per month -- I am not prepared to spend any more
money than this.
The result is dismal but acceptable. I get about 4-6 calls,
and out of that I do fund at least 1 loan per 600 mailed postcards,
making about $4-$6,000 plus future business and referrals after
myself and the customer got to get along well. Normally, it's
the relationship that will bring more dollars down the road
thru referrals from a satisifed customer.
I am not trained in postcard marketing, but I do adapt my
lines from lenders' flyers and the other postcards and flyers
other brokers have been sending to my home. I've noticed that
they all like "Fixed Rate" and love numbers like "5.875% 30 yr fixed"
or anynumber that can guide them, even if they wind up getting
a hardmoney loan! Homeowners are peculiar, they always think
they deserve the best rate but they wind up getting what they
can get.
Would appreciate your suggestions as I am on a tight budget
of less than $200 a month for my postcard campaign. I cannot
afford the envelope as it will cost me 47 cents per mailed
envelope. I have tried envelopes but the response is dismally
the same.
Peter |
|
|
mortgagemessiah
8003 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2008 : 10:57:25 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tsnyder
I've done direct mail for many years for a myself
and for clients in a variety of industries.
I've tested and tracked just about every type of mailer
imaginable and the one that comes up #1 every time is
a plain white #10 envelope hand addressed with a real
stamp and no commercial message on the outside.
Please understand that the magic isn't totally in the
envelope. The plain white hand addressed envelope will
get opened more often but once opened you MUST have some
very compelling copy on the inside or it will end up
in the trash with all the others.
I prefer a well crafted letter over anything else.
Tsnyder
I agree with Terry on this. You also have to connect with them emotionally first, then tell them who you are and what you can do for them. Oh, and one other thing, put your company letter head at the bottom of the page and put an attention grabbing headline at the top of the letter. |
|
|
peter
6465 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2008 : 11:01:44 PM
|
Darkstar: Of course, that was the gross commission to
the broker shop I work with and I don't get the full
amount. I also have to pay my loan processor and other
expenses, leaving me just about 50% net out of $4-$6,000
and certainly does not meet my mortgage payment for the
month. But it's better than nothing these days that
I lose less money than losing more money. And that's how
old money and new hopes come in to sustain the business.
Peter
|
|
|
peter
6465 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2008 : 11:29:07 PM
|
I am keeping my loan processor to do other loan files
as well, although not too many of them are funding these days
due to value issues in Los Angeles. I am keeping her in the
hope that business will turn around, and it is turning around
with FHA purchases this week as I get more loans into my
pipeline. My processor is working on a fee-per-file basis
and if we funded just 1 loan in any given month, she just can't
live on a processing fee. So, I am even paying her extra to
help her out. It's a matter of relationship beyond expenses
and profits, and I do it as long as I can still afford it out
of old money (while new dreams are still alive!). Of course,
my broker is getting a modest cut and he deserves it. Who's
gonna open up the office at 8.30 a.m. in the morning and closes
the office at 6.00 p.m. in the evening and who's gonna provide
the security umbrella for the loan buybacks and all kinds of
claims and headaches for a modest compensation except the good
Samaritan broker! Indeed, in a good monnth, I even offer to
pay some office bills to help him. After 18 years, our relationship
is beyond money as money can be found at the right time but
cordial and honest relationship must be nurtured and upheld at
the expense of personal sacrafice at times. I do uphold this
philosophy with my processor and my broker since we are in
the same boat -- we must survive together and we will succeed
together. I do not walk alone.
I guess I will have to downsize my high upkeep California view home
and other low-income producing assets in the event of dire needs.
Recognizing the potential of the senior market, I could orignate oans
out of a low-cost retirement community for seniors somewhere,
if there will be no other option. There should be plenty of
new customers there, but I would be embarrassed to do hard money
refis for them. Or should I not?
Peter |
|
|
FLProcessor
451 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2008 : 11:53:35 PM
|
Wow, this is a truly great dialog so far!
I should have been more clear in the original question. I'll clarify a couple points. First, I'm not looking for any new lists or resources for myself personally. I feel like our direct mail is working good, relatively speaking.
With that said, I'm desperately looking for something compelling to read on the Outpost lately. Something ON-topic, where people in a similar line of business share ideas.
When this debate about #10's came up, it really sparked my interest. I realized that we all have so many different ways of doing things.. That perhaps this is one area we can collaborate and share war stories. Particularly since it's really not giving up any proprietary information.
In short, this is more about collaboration and sharing/exchanging ideas with others, than looking for any help for myself personally.
With that said -- I have some comments. First, I agree on the list being the priority. I also agree on the copy being far more important than the mail piece. However, the list is going to be a subjective discussion because some of the people with the best information are people who also sell lists. And copy... Well, generally I find that people like to protect that. And so, I started with something I hoped would be fairly benign. That being media – not even delving into mail piece design at this juncture.
On with some suggestions of my own... Broker asked:
…..I've found that Emotional Direct Response Marketing (Think Dan Kennedy type stuff) generates a high initial response.
(reply) While I think Dan Kennedy is excellent, I think it depends on the list. For example, if you are mailing to sophisticated prospects, I’ve found that emotional copy will work against you (in the mortgage realm). I’ve also found that the basic/foundational “old rules” of direct mail are terrible when applied to the mortgage business. For example, the more times you use the word “you” and “free” you will decrease your response, not increase it.
Stephen said:
…you can't create a "call to action" if you can't hit a hot button unless you just want to use the "hit n' hope' method...
(reply) I couldn’t agree more. As far as writing copy, and designing the mail-piece (beyond the media which I’m referring to here), anyone that tells you that they have a “winning piece” without specifying which target it correlates with… In my experience, they’re full of it. Mailing to resets is obviously nothing like mailing to debt-consolidation leads. This seems obvious, yet for some reason so many people seem to overlook this.
On Stephen’s notes about mail size, I completely agree. I think the issue here, is that Gary/Broker is suggesting that #10’s are *much* less expensive than mailing flats (particularly in our case, where our flats run 3oz, and as you know it’s difficult to come in under 2oz if you’re using anything substantial inside that relatively weighty envelope).
On Stephen’s notes about copy, quote “The only thing I'll say about the content of the letter is "sell today, educate tomorrow", I hope that means something to you...” – I think that’s very interesting. In my experience, it’s best to do both, with the priority on selling. However, I could be wrong, because like anyone, I’m partial to writing the way I’d like to be spoken to. And that’s obviously not a good thing in copywriting.
What I really find interesting, is Terry’s comments. If I’m not mistaken, Terry is the one who offered the ARM-Reset course touting an exceptionally high response rate (far better luck than I’ve *ever* had). Now you add to that response, he’s only paying #10 mailpiece rates? All I can say is that I’d like to learn more about that!
To Peter – If you are doing 4-6 calls on $174 investment, you should not be bashful about those numbers! Especially considering you’re doing it with 4x5 postcards (the absolutely lowest response rate piece, in my experience). What type of list are you using?
WITHOUT GOING OFF TOPIC, I agree with Stephen about your expenses. You have a good thing going, and if anything, I’d do more of it and simply figure out how to optimize your operating costs…
Steve – That’s a Jay Sugarman line if I’ve ever seen one ;-). Dead-on, too, in my experience! I'd like to share some ideas with you when we meet up some day soon...
I’m curious – to those who say a #10 offers the highest response (Terry & Gary). Have you ever put the exact same letter in a 9x12? Granted, the postage is twice as high, I know, but I’m curious if you’ve tested apples-to-apples. The reason I ask, is that I test everything. If a #10 does well, I stick it in 4 different size envelopes or whatever I can find. If any other piece does well, I do the same. Therefore, I feel like I’m making my decisions very objectively, but I realize I could be wrong..
Thank you all for your comments so far – this has been one of the interesting exchanges I’ve had the pleasure to read lately ;-).
Another person I should ask to comment, is John Fowler. I believe he’s got some strong experience/opinions on direct mail as well.
|
|
|
Tsnyder
10567 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 12:06:20 AM
|
The answer to your question about the piece is yes.
When I test I test one element at a time. I track
all responses and replace the control with whatever
beats it... then test some more.
The common method is to send "X" number of pieces
to subsets of the overall list to compare response
rates before mailing the entire list but I've even
mailed the same piece in different envelopes to the
same people with a tracking number at the bottom to
see which they responded to. I've done this at spaced
intervals as well as simultaneously.
Tsnyder |
|
|
peter
6465 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 12:10:35 AM
|
Tiffany, I have been using the list I compile from
doing research on financial records found in Lead Locator
of on-line title company websites. I only go after debt
consolidation and the cashout refi market. I also do
research with lists supplied by title companies show
homes with sufficient equity margin of 30% or better.
However, it's a hit or miss basis, as the lists are not
always accurate especially when it comes to 2nd loans
that could invalidate the research.
Mine is a low-budget regular campaign that does not
cost much. I will invest in more funds once my business
gets to the level of net profit that warrants an incremental
investment. One thing at a time for now.
Peter
|
|
|
FLProcessor
451 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 12:18:21 AM
|
Peter- Don't worry, no matter how much you pay for your LTV data, it never seems to get any more accurate ;-). The source you're using for leads can get a little expensive. You also might look at alternatives, including people here.
Terry- I'm absolutely amazed. Not once in my experience have I been able to get a #10, handwritten or otherwise, to outperform a 9x12 using the exact same letter/etc. Would you allow me to recreate this exact same head-to-head, using the same copy, on my dime? |
|
|
johnnyboy38109
4357 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 06:04:44 AM
|
My response to this:
1) hand-written envelopes are fallacy....people tend to remember responses per 100 on handwritten vs. automated because they worked so hard to send them.
2) there's nothing more expensive than a failed campaign.......direct mail is expensive, unless you've got it down to a science so get prepared for some expenses and don't expect to build a business using direct mail on the cheap.......this is a hard lesson for youngsters to learn.
3) there's not one component more important than another.......they're ALL important
4) people neglect, or fail to consider, the following:
paper size
weight of the paper
the power of originality
font style
spacing
what words retain people's attention
what other "things" capture attention
the power of 3 senses
the need to keep things simple..........people are tired when they get
home........get to the damn point
lastly.....................TIMING...............no one I've ever seen on this forum
or any other has ever mentioned anything about TIMING
successful repetition
when to buy lists
the difference between actual vs. modeled
5) you must research your market, your geographical market, before you dump pieces or you're just straining at the neck to waste money.....its a fine point and one most people won't do..........that's why they fail.
6) NEVER trust turnkeys......................NEVER...........
7) Always follow the LOCAL LOCAL LOCAL rule
and more, all I have time for now.
|
|
|
FLProcessor
451 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 06:19:33 AM
|
Wow, John... That's GREAT info!
1) Hand written envelopes - I've run into the same thing (as your #1 observation) in my testing. I really want to test Terry's control, because there has to be something I'm missing.
2) Just reading that is painful, it's like being forced to recount every time I've suffered excruciating pain!
4) Timing - as in, reach them on Tuesday, or a differnet type of timing? And by Actual v. Modeled, you mean, the reality of the data versus the data?
5) You mean, for example, Rural v. Metro -- and NE US v. Southern US, right?
6 & 7 ... Agreed as well, same experience here.
This is great stuff, thank you! |
|
|
johnnyboy38109
4357 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 06:26:43 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
Wow, John... That's GREAT info!
1) Hand written envelopes - I've run into the same thing (as your #1 observation) in my testing. I really want to test Terry's control, because there has to be something I'm missing.
2) Just reading that is painful, it's like being forced to recount every time I've suffered excruciating pain!
4) Timing - as in, reach them on Tuesday, or a differnet type of timing? And by Actual v. Modeled, you mean, the reality of the data versus the data?
5) You mean, for example, Rural v. Metro -- and NE US v. Southern US, right?
6 & 7 ... Agreed as well, same experience here.
This is great stuff, thank you!
from your reply
4) much more in depth than Tuesdays, and no, that's not it on "modeled"
5) no, much more in depth than that.......pertains to zip code research, ppp language, seasoning, FC activity.
|
|
|
raymondb
5111 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 07:07:05 AM
|
Well said T! The single most important factor is the list, I would say about 70% of your response will come because of the list you choose to mail to. My advice is to get you the CORRECT targe audience. I pride my company on being able to filter ANY list for a mailing client so they don't have to go elsewhere to get it. As a mail vendor it makes it a lot easier knowing that when we send out a peice its giong to the right audience. I know no matter what package we put the piece in it will usually get a response with the right list.
As far as the piece it self the response can vary by geography and demographics of that list. We will see a totally different response from a # 10 in a low saturated state like ID IA or WI than we will in a states like cali, fl, nv. The lower the sauration level the more standard you can make that piece and still get a good response. Once you get into highly sautrated areas you will need to stand out more, snap paks, bigger sizes, flashy postcards, etc....will help you increase your response in these areas. Make the content professional and inviting. The last factor I would say is the day of the drop. If you can gauge the day the piece hits to be a tuesday or wednesday you will do much better, mondays are really busy for folks (just like us) so Tuesday through Thursday is usually pretty good days to hit on. I personally like #10 letters as the best form of mailing as a standard, although i do like the snap packs for some of hte pre for closure pieces and the postcards for "name recognition" mailers (small towns, current client base for referrals, OR hitting a small limited list multiple times).
I have included a couple helpful links...If you have any more questions please fire away....
______________________________________________________________________________________
DIRECT MAIL
http://www.bestratereferrals.com/mailers.html
MAILING LISTS
http://www.bestratereferrals.com/mailers.html
http://www.bestratereferrals.com/adjustable_rate_mortgage_leads.html
______________________________________________________________________________________
quote:
Originally posted by Tsnyder
Just to add... I agree with D-Star... the fortune
is ultimately in the list.
As the old saying goes... you can't say the right thing
to the wrong person and you can't say the wrong thing to
the right person.
If you're mailing to the right people you'll get good
response with even a mediocre piece.
Tsnyder
|
|
|
broker3271
418 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 07:16:02 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
Wow, John... That's GREAT info!
1) Hand written envelopes - I've run into the same thing (as your #1 observation) in my testing. I really want to test Terry's control, because there has to be something I'm missing.
2) Just reading that is painful, it's like being forced to recount every time I've suffered excruciating pain!
4) Timing - as in, reach them on Tuesday, or a differnet type of timing? And by Actual v. Modeled, you mean, the reality of the data versus the data?
5) You mean, for example, Rural v. Metro -- and NE US v. Southern US, right?
6 & 7 ... Agreed as well, same experience here.
This is great stuff, thank you!
He's talking about (at least I think so) about "Actual credit data" vs. "Modeled credit data". I put that in quotes because I'm of the opinion that one can never get "Actual" credit data, but there are companies where you can get close.
If you're using modeled data you're going to be F$%$#%Q%$!. Seriously, if you use modeled data you end up throwing your money down the drain. Mail is expensive enough as it is; don't make it even more so by using crap data when you're mailing.
I'd be curious to know why you don't think that you should use a "Turnkey" vendor. By that statement I assume that you're refering to a company that does everything for you.
I've found that there are good companies that provide both services. |
|
|
FLProcessor
451 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 07:16:38 AM
|
4) I got you on "more in depth than Tuesdays", my question was just whether you meant timing of delivery -- or you were talking in a more macro sense, like "don't market ARM resets in this market" sort of thing ;-). I apologize if I over-simplified for sake of communicating the point.
4b) Actual v. Modeled. So you're referring to the difference between Actual SOURCE data compilations versus modeled/inferred data, then?
5) So you actually take the time to selectively isolate on anciliary items, such as zip code using zip-append demographics (which takes us back to modeled data)? I've spent months modeling append-data of every type I could find, without any major significance. Anything more specific than county, and I lose true statistical significance -- finding myself stuck with potential for regression, if only I had large enough samplings - much larger than several hundred thousand mailers, most of which are different controls, further decreasing the usable universe.... |
|
|
FLProcessor
451 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 07:20:18 AM
|
Sorry Gary, I missed your post - I think we were typing at the same time.
His reasoning for avoiding turnkey was posted in an earlier thread. Basically that they have too much control / there is a lack of involvement (potential liability) / lack of creativity, which is critical.
I just haven't ever found a company that excels in every area. For example, there is no way I'll ever get the best data, at the best price, from a printing/mailing company. However, a data vendor (eg Equifax) is not going to do printing, or if they do, they certainly aren't going to be the best price. However, John is concerned with the liability before you ever get to that point, if I remember correctly. |
|
|
HIV Positive
49 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 07:27:55 AM
|
| What are some good Direct Mailer companies? |
|
|
broker3271
418 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 07:31:46 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
4) I got you on "more in depth than Tuesdays", my question was just whether you meant timing of delivery -- or you were talking in a more macro sense, like "don't market ARM resets in this market" sort of thing ;-). I apologize if I over-simplified for sake of communicating the point.
4b) Actual v. Modeled. So you're referring to the difference between Actual SOURCE data compilations versus modeled/inferred data, then?
5) So you actually take the time to selectively isolate on anciliary items, such as zip code using zip-append demographics (which takes us back to modeled data)? I've spent months modeling append-data of every type I could find, without any major significance. Anything more specific than county, and I lose true statistical significance -- finding myself stuck with potential for regression, if only I had large enough samplings - much larger than several hundred thousand mailers, most of which are different controls, further decreasing the usable universe....
Maybe it's because I can be a little lazy, but sometimes I find that detailed market analysis can be a waste of time. Certainly it helps to know what's going on a local area, but I've never found the "Opportunity Cost" to be high enough for me to do detailed statistical analysis of areas that I'm planning on mailing.
I prefer to shoot first and ask questions later, if you catch my drift. Again I want to emphasize that I don't do it all helter skelter, I do research.
What is the "LOCAL LOCAL LOCAL" rule that he, (Johnnyboy) refers too? Most of my business is not Local, and most of my business derives from mailers. Ideally you should be local with people you mail, especially at the beginning. |
|
|
raymondb
5111 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 07:37:14 AM
|
My thinking is that you are better off using a person that can help you filter the list, print and deliver it as well at or close to the best price on the market. I for one, let my client do all their own list selecting and if they want to design their peice or change ours at all they have that control too. I think its a huge benefit of using an all in one company becuase they are responsible for the mailing (no one to blame a bad repsonse on but themselves) a risk im willing to take because I do a great job for folks on mail.
As for ARM reset in this market....depnds on what your mailing for. If your trying to do Refi depends on where you are located. If your state has had any type of deline (most have) in value do not mail to ARMs UNLESS your doing loan mods or short sell. I have found that the ARMs do very well for these markets.
Tiffany as far as your best pricing dilema you can get prtty darn close with my company. I have set up my plat form to make very little on the data that we offer when your doing a mailing with us. SInce i do so many different forms of marketing the margins do not have to max out on any one individual product, thus giving me good pricing on all. We do have access to much more than modular data....Credit, ARMs, FHA, etc.... are all specialty databases that you can choose from. I guess what im trying to say is that we have created your one stop low price mail shop with all availabliltiy on any target market.
Broker 3271, you are corrrect in this market modeled data isn't all that great. You must get either credit or some other specialty type list to get any type of response.
quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
Sorry Gary, I missed your post - I think we were typing at the same time.
His reasoning for avoiding turnkey was posted in an earlier thread. Basically that they have too much control / there is a lack of involvement (potential liability) / lack of creativity, which is critical.
I just haven't ever found a company that excels in every area. For example, there is no way I'll ever get the best data, at the best price, from a printing/mailing company. However, a data vendor (eg Equifax) is not going to do printing, or if they do, they certainly aren't going to be the best price. However, John is concerned with the liability before you ever get to that point, if I remember correctly.
|
|
|
FLProcessor
451 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 08:47:24 AM
|
Raymond,
I'm not knocking your pricing whatsoever. Everything you've mentioned within the last few months sounds good. I was simply interpreting John's cliff-notes version, to help Gary.
I just scrolled up in this thread and noticed your reply. Somehow I had missed it earlier. Thank you for your opinion on the mail pieces, it's also very consistent with my opinion. I think you truly hit the nail on the head, that #10 effectiveness is directly correlated to saturation. This was my initial point in the discussion with the other poster -- that in Florida, for example, no matter how good the copy/insides, the piece isn't going to get opened enough to give you a fair shot.
I do have one question. You mentioned that Snap Paks are an improvement where there is saturation. I can see Snap Paks in the busy market, the modification market, etc -- but in my experience, it doesn't hold its weight in the more difficult demographics. Do you agree? Also, do you have any feedback on the handwritten debate?
One last thing for you, Raymond -- there was a post in the announcements section where this discussion originated (title: direct mail for the first time). You might want to check it out, the company marketing there as well as another user who is asking for additional information.
Thanks again for the feedback! |
|
|
raymondb
5111 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 08:59:24 AM
|
No worries I just wanted to point that out for the readers as well. #10 are def rough in a state like FL so your point was right on form my experiences. Snap packs are working pretty good for the loan mods stuff, short sale as well but primarily anything Pre NOD is great with a snap pack. If your targeting refi business in FL....well....honestly unless you really want to I would try something else out. Maybe hire a couple TMs, or target renters for first time buyers before refi....MHO. If you do have to do mail I would go after some credit data and go for some shock value, I don't know that snap packs will work well in FL refi market, I wouldn't advise snap packs for anything in FL unless its pre for closure stuff.
thanks for the heads up on that thread....if you have any more questions please fire away.
quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
Raymond,
I'm not knocking your pricing whatsoever. Everything you've mentioned within the last few months sounds good. I was simply interpreting John's cliff-notes version, to help Gary.
I just scrolled up in this thread and noticed your reply. Somehow I had missed it earlier. Thank you for your opinion on the mail pieces, it's also very consistent with my opinion. I think you truly hit the nail on the head, that #10 effectiveness is directly correlated to saturation. This was my initial point in the discussion with the other poster -- that in Florida, for example, no matter how good the copy/insides, the piece isn't going to get opened enough to give you a fair shot.
I do have one question. You mentioned that Snap Paks are an improvement where there is saturation. I can see Snap Paks in the busy market, the modification market, etc -- but in my experience, it doesn't hold its weight in the more difficult demographics. Do you agree? Also, do you have any feedback on the handwritten debate?
One last thing for you, Raymond -- there was a post in the announcements section where this discussion originated (title: direct mail for the first time). You might want to check it out, the company marketing there as well as another user who is asking for additional information.
Thanks again for the feedback!
|
|
|
broker3271
418 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 09:52:12 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by raymondb
No worries I just wanted to point that out for the readers as well. #10 are def rough in a state like FL so your point was right on form my experiences. Snap packs are working pretty good for the loan mods stuff, short sale as well but primarily anything Pre NOD is great with a snap pack. If your targeting refi business in FL....well....honestly unless you really want to I would try something else out. Maybe hire a couple TMs, or target renters for first time buyers before refi....MHO. If you do have to do mail I would go after some credit data and go for some shock value, I don't know that snap packs will work well in FL refi market, I wouldn't advise snap packs for anything in FL unless its pre for closure stuff.
thanks for the heads up on that thread....if you have any more questions please fire away.
quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
Raymond,
I'm not knocking your pricing whatsoever. Everything you've mentioned within the last few months sounds good. I was simply interpreting John's cliff-notes version, to help Gary.
I just scrolled up in this thread and noticed your reply. Somehow I had missed it earlier. Thank you for your opinion on the mail pieces, it's also very consistent with my opinion. I think you truly hit the nail on the head, that #10 effectiveness is directly correlated to saturation. This was my initial point in the discussion with the other poster -- that in Florida, for example, no matter how good the copy/insides, the piece isn't going to get opened enough to give you a fair shot.
I do have one question. You mentioned that Snap Paks are an improvement where there is saturation. I can see Snap Paks in the busy market, the modification market, etc -- but in my experience, it doesn't hold its weight in the more difficult demographics. Do you agree? Also, do you have any feedback on the handwritten debate?
One last thing for you, Raymond -- there was a post in the announcements section where this discussion originated (title: direct mail for the first time). You might want to check it out, the company marketing there as well as another user who is asking for additional information.
Thanks again for the feedback!
http://www.brokeroutpost.com/loans/brokers/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=236535
This was the thread where we had the discussion.
PS FLP I bet you 50k that we don't have a real response to our questions at the end of the thread...thus I guess proving your point. |
|
|
FLProcessor
451 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 10:07:22 AM
|
Gary, I've posed similar questions to several "Announcements" people, sort of giving them the benefit of the doubt (eg "Do you really speak to 500 brokers a day or is that a type-o") and I rarely ever get a reply. But it's just like Direct Mail, I figure. Sometimes you stumble on something rare, that seems impossible, and it works great. So, while skeptical, I do my best to keep an open mind!
Raymond, thank you for the insightful words on the FL market. I always feel better when I receive affirmation that FL remains a very difficult market. I lose so much sleep over minor copyriting ideas, second guessing myself -- constantly worried that one small word is somehow ruining my response.. |
|
|
peter
6465 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 10:13:38 AM
|
When I have a chance, I try to save money on the cost
of stamps especially in targeting FTHBs. I go to apartment
buildings and insert my small 4" X 2 1/2" cards which I
print from my All-In-One HP printer, into mail boxes of
apartment tenants. This weekend I was able to insert about
80 such cards into 3 buildings near to my home, and that's
a saving of $21.60 in stamp costs. I adapted the slogan and
the contents from my research of lenders' flyers as well as
flyer samples given to me by my favorite title rep. For
refis, I will be going into condo buildings and do the same.
Not only will it save me money on stamp costs, but I will have
a chance to snoop around and start chatting with some resident-owners
of condos in those buildings.
A real estate agent in my office has had some success in
droping his postcards into individual mail boxes. He simply
bikes around from home to home and drop his postcards into
mailboxes. Not only does he have a good physical fitness exercise
in biking, but has had some calls back at least from homeowners
who are upsidedown and want to list their homes for sale.
Peter
|
|
|
broker3271
418 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 10:14:28 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
Gary, I've posed similar questions to several "Announcements" people, sort of giving them the benefit of the doubt (eg "Do you really speak to 500 brokers a day or is that a type-o") and I rarely ever get a reply. But it's just like Direct Mail, I figure. Sometimes you stumble on something rare, that seems impossible, and it works great. So, while skeptical, I do my best to keep an open mind!
Raymond, thank you for the insightful words on the FL market. I always feel better when I receive affirmation that FL remains a very difficult market. I lose so much sleep over minor copyriting ideas, second guessing myself -- constantly worried that one small word is somehow ruining my response..
Last mailer I did in Florida was less than fruitful. Less than .5% response...what do you see there?
I've found that FL, CA, and MD are the three toughest states for me to get a Direct Mail response. |
|
|
raymondb
5111 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 10:31:46 AM
|
Your welcome! It's all demographics. List is 70% of any mailer but demographics determines everything you do to compile that list. In FL the demographics are not so good right now. thats just reality...
If you ever need any more help I'm here and love answering marketing questions. |
|
|
peter
6465 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 10:53:28 AM
|
Gary, I agree. California is real tough, especially in
Los Angeles area as there are many brokers mailing out cards
and flyers. However, lately I have noticed that many of them
have stopped sending flyers to my home either because they have
gone out of business or they are not getting the results. I
followed up each time with my calls to find out who they are and
I found out that several of them had already had their phones
disconnected.
We will have less competition in the months to come. So,
by diligently sending out communications to homeowners in the
form of postcards or flyers, you will eventually get the business
and the response rate will improve if the message is tuned up
well to meet the desire and tempo of the market.
I still keep on sending mine daily no matter how good or
poor response I will get. I change my message and slogans all
the time and thru trial and error I will get more and more
business.
Peter |
|
|
broker3271
418 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 10:58:00 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by peter
Gary, I agree. California is real tough, especially in
Los Angeles area as there are many brokers mailing out cards
and flyers. However, lately I have noticed that many of them
have stopped sending flyers to my home either because they have
gone out of business or they are not getting the results. I
followed up each time with my calls to find out who they are and
I found out that several of them had already had their phones
disconnected.
We will have less competition in the months to come. So,
by diligently sending out communications to homeowners in the
form of postcards or flyers, you will eventually get the business
and the response rate will improve if the message is tuned up
well to meet the desire and tempo of the market.
I still keep on sending mine daily no matter how good or
poor response I will get. I change my message and slogans all
the time and thru trial and error I will get more and more
business.
Peter
Actually, I have noticed a little bit of an uptick generally speaking in my DM response rates. I don't know if it's statiscially significant yet, but I have noticed it...
Has anybody else?
On a general note, I've had such "Red Queen" syndrome with my marketing in general lately, not that I mind, at least it's still working, but I have to do more of it to keep my levels consistant with prior years marketing. |
|
|
blake1952
422 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 11:13:13 AM
|
I too am very limited with my advertising budget. My DMs have consisted of 4x6 index cards with refi-a.r.m. info. Due to a limited amount to spedn, the return is about as good. I use a title company that gives me great data, as I confirm information in my county on-line before I send anyting out. Mail per piece is about as cheap as mentioned above, including stamp, about 29 cents.
As far as receiving mail outs from other brokers, I have yet to see anything other than a nice post card that has remotely commanded me to respond. #10 envelops, fancy "official" looking mailouts all go into the shredder. |
|
|
Bob H
303 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 12:01:50 PM
|
I used to mail 25 - 50k a month to keep the LO's busy and the phones ringing. I have cut back to about 15k a month tops. I have a couple of pieces that have been pulling a 1 - 5% response rate on a regular basis. I dropped 5k (lender file) about a month ago and it pulled 250 calls. My overall data is a mix of credit data, lender files, and arm reset data.
I actually pulled a 1% response on credit data (580+ fico, loan balance 75k - $350k, no lates in last 12, no bk, and 15k revolving). Problem was that that almost all callers had fixed rates below 6%. Another issue was that some HELOCs are reported on credit as revolving instead of a mortgage. That threw off the revolving balance select.
When I mail to arm or lender file data, the phones explode. As everyone already knows, many folks are in big trouble with credit and mortgage history so the denial rate is crazy. I did a full analysis of mail response and conversion ratio about a month ago. I came up with some interesting findings. The most important finding was that callers with an exisiting mortgage balance less than $200k and no existing second mortgage had the highest conversion ratio (almost 3 to 1).
I am in the process of testing 2 data sets with smaller first mortgages and no exisiting second mortgage. I mailed 3k of each. If my thinking is correct, my mail should perform much better. The calls should start hitting this week so I will let you guys know if we get a higher conversion ratio. |
|
|
nofeebkr
63 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 12:43:21 PM
|
I have enjoyed reading everyone's response and without any negative comments or attacks. Let's keep it up.
I have tried several DM over the years and have recently (past 4 months) come back to keeping it simple. I, like dkstar, have used the 9x12 and it worked pretty good, however, I have found that a 9x6 manila, with outside wording saying "Important Information Regarding Your Property", gave me very good results. I sent this out three times to the same target area, 3 weeks apart, with wording added to the last mailer saying "last notice". Each mailer received a higher response rate. The first 1000 we received 23 calls, the second was 45 and the last was 97 calls. The total cost for each campaign was $328.00 (printing, envelopes, and bulk mail stamp). WE closed a total of 32 loans with the average commission of $3,300.00 per loan. We used the same wording before but also put "Please Open". This did not work very will, a total of 35 calls and 4
closings.
Oh yea, the stuffer was nothing more than a hand written note saying "please contact me regarding your home loan with __________________".
This works with on type of loan, weather it's current of in default. And by the way, this idea came from a contest I held at SDSU (I'm in San Diego), for students studing marketing. I gave the winner a $100.00 gift Cert. for Macy's and $150.00 dinner cert. for Jake's on the beach and for the two runner ups $50.00 each. Well worth the money. |
|
|
nofeebkr
63 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 3:47:05 PM
|
Actually, it's just a bit over 10%, but still worth a WOW. Great college kids. They are working on something new for me, but want me to buy the whole class lunch. I said ok, a good catered Mexican meal with 25 students will cost around $300.00. That's a savings for me. LOL quote:
Originally posted by darkstar
Closing almost 20% of your inbound calls is off the charts!
|
|
|
nofeebkr
63 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 4:11:35 PM
|
I was counting out of the the 3000 mailers. But you are right, out of the responding calls. I stand corrected. I was even surprised at the closing ratio. Pretty good, wouldn't say?quote:
Originally posted by darkstar
32 out of 165(23+45+97) calls is 19.39%!...Did I miss something?...
|
|
|
johnnyboy38109
4357 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 5:16:54 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by nofeebkr
I have enjoyed reading everyone's response and without any negative comments or attacks. Let's keep it up.
I have tried several DM over the years and have recently (past 4 months) come back to keeping it simple. I, like dkstar, have used the 9x12 and it worked pretty good, however, I have found that a 9x6 manila, with outside wording saying "Important Information Regarding Your Property", gave me very good results. I sent this out three times to the same target area, 3 weeks apart, with wording added to the last mailer saying "last notice". Each mailer received a higher response rate. The first 1000 we received 23 calls, the second was 45 and the last was 97 calls. The total cost for each campaign was $328.00 (printing, envelopes, and bulk mail stamp). WE closed a total of 32 loans with the average commission of $3,300.00 per loan. We used the same wording before but also put "Please Open". This did not work very will, a total of 35 calls and 4
closings.
Oh yea, the stuffer was nothing more than a hand written note saying "please contact me regarding your home loan with __________________".
This works with on type of loan, weather it's current of in default. And by the way, this idea came from a contest I held at SDSU (I'm in San Diego), for students studing marketing. I gave the winner a $100.00 gift Cert. for Macy's and $150.00 dinner cert. for Jake's on the beach and for the two runner ups $50.00 each. Well worth the money.
Sir, if you sent out 3k and generated over $100,000 on 32 units, you need to stop originating, write a book about it, then go on Larry King....
32 units on 3000 pieces for $100,000....?
If that's true you are much, much better than myself or Mr. Ames or Mr. Snyder or Mr. Bartreau or anyone else here I can think of, and Mr. Snyder and myself are paid consultants on the subject. |
|
|
peter
6465 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 5:36:55 PM
|
I have typed up 200 of 5" X 3" postcards this time with
a headline "Get Quick Cash $$$$$ with our Speedy Home Loan'
with simple lines:
Credit Problems OK
In Foreclosure OK
Notice of Default OK
Notice of Trust Sale OK
and a big line under "Minimum Loan $100,000. Upto 60% Loan To Value.
Then, Call Peter XXXXXX
I've got a list of homeowners who got NODs in August and
I double sorted them thru the Lead Locator feature of
a title website to make sure that they have only the first
trust deed of less than $150,000. Assuming that the value
of any standing house in L.A. is at least $300,000, I have
found the prospects from the list that I have researched.
I will mail them tomorrow and it will cost me $81 (out of which
my broker will pay half - thus my cost before my year-end
tax writeoff should be $40.50). This could be a better bet
that buying a California lottery. I am hoping to net a fish --
a hardmoney borrower who is drowning in NODs.
Please openly critique my methodology as I sincerely want
to improve and to earn a living from working so hard on these
postcards. If I don't fund anything out of this resulting in
a failed postcard campaign, at least I am out just $40.50 and
I could skip a few restaurant dinners to make up for the loss.
Your suggestions will be much appreciated. Thank you.
Peter |
|
|
peter
6465 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 5:37:31 PM
|
I have typed up 200 of 5" X 3" postcards this time with
a headline "Get Quick Cash $$$$$ with our Speedy Home Loan'
with simple lines:
Credit Problems OK
In Foreclosure OK
Notice of Default OK
Notice of Trust Sale OK
and a big line under "Minimum Loan $100,000. Upto 60% Loan To Value.
Then, Call Peter XXXXXX
I've got a list of homeowners who got NODs in August and
I double sorted them thru the Lead Locator feature of
a title website to make sure that they have only the first
trust deed of less than $150,000. Assuming that the value
of any standing house in L.A. is at least $300,000, I have
found the prospects from the list that I have researched.
I will mail them tomorrow and it will cost me $81 (out of which
my broker will pay half - thus my cost before my year-end
tax writeoff should be $40.50). This could be a better bet
that buying a California lottery. I am hoping to net a fish --
a hardmoney borrower who is drowning in NODs.
Please openly critique my methodology as I sincerely want
to improve and to earn a living from working so hard on these
postcards. If I don't fund anything out of this resulting in
a failed postcard campaign, at least I am out just $40.50 and
I could skip a few restaurant dinners to make up for the loss.
Your suggestions will be much appreciated. Thank you.
Peter |
|
|
nofeebkr
63 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 10:06:32 PM
|
Thank You for the complement Johnnie but there are many more loan reps who have done more than I have done. Check out Mortgage Market Guide, Barry Habib and his crew or Greg Frost or Karen Deis and her list of speakers and trainers. 32 loans a month is not a whole lot when you have been around as long as I have been. I have closed more and made more in one month but I have also paid out more for my processor and assistant, advertisment, gifts, monthly up dates for my clients, realtors,etc. By the way, I have written two books, been a guest speaker at two Universities, provided support and training to LO's for five (5) different companies and a whole lot more plus I have shared my technics with many other people. The technics are nothing more than doing more than what you say you will do. Follow up, follow up and more follow up. Give a little more information, take a little more time with the client and don't get greedy. Keep a positive attitude and remember, you are your biggest competitor. Business is slow for slow people. Always ask for a loan, when ever I make a presentation, at the end I tell everyone: "I don't want all of the business, just yours and I will point to everyone". Blessings to you. quote:
Originally posted by johnnyboy38109
quote:
Originally posted by nofeebkr
I have enjoyed reading everyone's response and without any negative comments or attacks. Let's keep it up.
I have tried several DM over the years and have recently (past 4 months) come back to keeping it simple. I, like dkstar, have used the 9x12 and it worked pretty good, however, I have found that a 9x6 manila, with outside wording saying "Important Information Regarding Your Property", gave me very good results. I sent this out three times to the same target area, 3 weeks apart, with wording added to the last mailer saying "last notice". Each mailer received a higher response rate. The first 1000 we received 23 calls, the second was 45 and the last was 97 calls. The total cost for each campaign was $328.00 (printing, envelopes, and bulk mail stamp). WE closed a total of 32 loans with the average commission of $3,300.00 per loan. We used the same wording before but also put "Please Open". This did not work very will, a total of 35 calls and 4
closings.
Oh yea, the stuffer was nothing more than a hand written note saying "please contact me regarding your home loan with __________________".
This works with on type of loan, weather it's current of in default. And by the way, this idea came from a contest I held at SDSU (I'm in San Diego), for students studing marketing. I gave the winner a $100.00 gift Cert. for Macy's and $150.00 dinner cert. for Jake's on the beach and for the two runner ups $50.00 each. Well worth the money.
Sir, if you sent out 3k and generated over $100,000 on 32 units, you need to stop originating, write a book about it, then go on Larry King....
32 units on 3000 pieces for $100,000....?
If that's true you are much, much better than myself or Mr. Ames or Mr. Snyder or Mr. Bartreau or anyone else here I can think of, and Mr. Snyder and myself are paid consultants on the subject.
|
|
|
KHufford
10407 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2008 : 12:01:02 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by nofeebkr
Thank You for the complement Johnnie but there are many more loan reps who have done more than I have done. Check out Mortgage Market Guide, Barry Habib and his crew or Greg Frost or Karen Deis and her list of speakers and trainers. 32 loans a month is not a whole lot when you have been around as long as I have been. I have closed more and made more in one month but I have also paid out more for my processor and assistant, advertisment, gifts, monthly up dates for my clients, realtors,etc. By the way, I have written two books, been a guest speaker at two Universities, provided support and training to LO's for five (5) different companies and a whole lot more plus I have shared my technics with many other people. The technics are nothing more than doing more than what you say you will do. Follow up, follow up and more follow up. Give a little more information, take a little more time with the client and don't get greedy. Keep a positive attitude and remember, you are your biggest competitor. Business is slow for slow people. Always ask for a loan, when ever I make a presentation, at the end I tell everyone: "I don't want all of the business, just yours and I will point to everyone". Blessings to you. quote:
Originally posted by johnnyboy38109
quote:
Originally posted by nofeebkr
I have enjoyed reading everyone's response and without any negative comments or attacks. Let's keep it up.
I have tried several DM over the years and have recently (past 4 months) come back to keeping it simple. I, like dkstar, have used the 9x12 and it worked pretty good, however, I have found that a 9x6 manila, with outside wording saying "Important Information Regarding Your Property", gave me very good results. I sent this out three times to the same target area, 3 weeks apart, with wording added to the last mailer saying "last notice". Each mailer received a higher response rate. The first 1000 we received 23 calls, the second was 45 and the last was 97 calls. The total cost for each campaign was $328.00 (printing, envelopes, and bulk mail stamp). WE closed a total of 32 loans with the average commission of $3,300.00 per loan. We used the same wording before but also put "Please Open". This did not work very will, a total of 35 calls and 4
closings.
Oh yea, the stuffer was nothing more than a hand written note saying "please contact me regarding your home loan with __________________".
This works with on type of loan, weather it's current of in default. And by the way, this idea came from a contest I held at SDSU (I'm in San Diego), for students studing marketing. I gave the winner a $100.00 gift Cert. for Macy's and $150.00 dinner cert. for Jake's on the beach and for the two runner ups $50.00 each. Well worth the money.
Sir, if you sent out 3k and generated over $100,000 on 32 units, you need to stop originating, write a book about it, then go on Larry King....
32 units on 3000 pieces for $100,000....?
If that's true you are much, much better than myself or Mr. Ames or Mr. Snyder or Mr. Bartreau or anyone else here I can think of, and Mr. Snyder and myself are paid consultants on the subject.
Gary, you are the president of 'Five Star Mortgage'? Just wondering why your contact info for the branch is a house?
|
|
|
johnnyboy38109
4357 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2008 : 07:17:34 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by nofeebkr
Thank You for the complement Johnnie but there are many more loan reps who have done more than I have done. Check out Mortgage Market Guide, Barry Habib and his crew or Greg Frost or Karen Deis and her list of speakers and trainers. 32 loans a month is not a whole lot when you have been around as long as I have been. I have closed more and made more in one month but I have also paid out more for my processor and assistant, advertisment, gifts, monthly up dates for my clients, realtors,etc. By the way, I have written two books, been a guest speaker at two Universities, provided support and training to LO's for five (5) different companies and a whole lot more plus I have shared my technics with many other people. The technics are nothing more than doing more than what you say you will do. Follow up, follow up and more follow up. Give a little more information, take a little more time with the client and don't get greedy. Keep a positive attitude and remember, you are your biggest competitor. Business is slow for slow people. Always ask for a loan, when ever I make a presentation, at the end I tell everyone: "I don't want all of the business, just yours and I will point to everyone". Blessings to you. quote:
Originally posted by johnnyboy38109
quote:
Originally posted by nofeebkr
I have enjoyed reading everyone's response and without any negative comments or attacks. Let's keep it up.
I have tried several DM over the years and have recently (past 4 months) come back to keeping it simple. I, like dkstar, have used the 9x12 and it worked pretty good, however, I have found that a 9x6 manila, with outside wording saying "Important Information Regarding Your Property", gave me very good results. I sent this out three times to the same target area, 3 weeks apart, with wording added to the last mailer saying "last notice". Each mailer received a higher response rate. The first 1000 we received 23 calls, the second was 45 and the last was 97 calls. The total cost for each campaign was $328.00 (printing, envelopes, and bulk mail stamp). WE closed a total of 32 loans with the average commission of $3,300.00 per loan. We used the same wording before but also put "Please Open". This did not work very will, a total of 35 calls and 4
closings.
Oh yea, the stuffer was nothing more than a hand written note saying "please contact me regarding your home loan with __________________".
This works with on type of loan, weather it's current of in default. And by the way, this idea came from a contest I held at SDSU (I'm in San Diego), for students studing marketing. I gave the winner a $100.00 gift Cert. for Macy's and $150.00 dinner cert. for Jake's on the beach and for the two runner ups $50.00 each. Well worth the money.
Sir, if you sent out 3k and generated over $100,000 on 32 units, you need to stop originating, write a book about it, then go on Larry King....
32 units on 3000 pieces for $100,000....?
If that's true you are much, much better than myself or Mr. Ames or Mr. Snyder or Mr. Bartreau or anyone else here I can think of, and Mr. Snyder and myself are paid consultants on the subject.
Threads like these are always so good for my consulting aspect.
If those are indeed your results, sir, then folks like myself and those mentioned above will tip our collective hats to you.
That being said, nearly all of us in that group are familiar with Mr. Habib and Mr. Frost, etc., and aren't particularly impressed. Most of what they convey is rah-rah fist-pumpin' "motivation", and insofar as the specific techniques you outlined about mail pieces, those ideas are as old as the hills and the "please call me" thing is just crude.
32 units on 3000 in this climate?....or any climate for that matter... I consider myself at least fairly well-versed on the subject and those numbers are astronomical....
If that's true, hats off..... |
|
|
KHufford
10407 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2008 : 07:21:31 AM
|
Isn't the standard response rate on mail in 'general' 1%?
That would mean even if you managed 2% you would be doubling the average response rate and that would be considered fantastic?
|
|
|
raymondb
5111 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2008 : 07:24:39 AM
|
That is the overall standard. Most mail houses try and hit 2-3% each time, or at least I do and I know a couple others that strive to hit higher numebrs as well. If you find a company that helps you hit over 1.5% consistently be HAPPY!
My tow cents.
quote:
Originally posted by KHufford
Isn't the standard response rate on mail in 'general' 1%?
That would mean even if you managed 2% you would be doubling the average response rate and that would be considered fantastic?
|
|
|
broker3271
418 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2008 : 07:48:30 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by raymondb
That is the overall standard. Most mail houses try and hit 2-3% each time, or at least I do and I know a couple others that strive to hit higher numebrs as well. If you find a company that helps you hit over 1.5% consistently be HAPPY!
My tow cents.
quote:
Originally posted by KHufford
Isn't the standard response rate on mail in 'general' 1%?
That would mean even if you managed 2% you would be doubling the average response rate and that would be considered fantastic?
When I get TM'd by Mail Houses, they typically quote that the average mail response is right around a 1/2% (which does seem about right based off my conversations with people I know in the business).
These same mail houses then go on and quote about a 1% response. |
|
|
raymondb
5111 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2008 : 07:51:34 AM
|
| Exactly....We always quote a little less than we shoot for so that people are not over expecting. So 1-2% is realistic to expect to see as a true response even though we shoot for higher, in some areas we do see as high as 3-5% and higher but not as an average nationaly. I think the break even point if you can convert the calls is some where around a half a percent so the piece must perform better than that from a cost + time vs break even stand point. |
|
|
johnnyboy38109
4357 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2008 : 07:52:21 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by raymondb
That is the overall standard. Most mail houses try and hit 2-3% each time, or at least I do and I know a couple others that strive to hit higher numebrs as well. If you find a company that helps you hit over 1.5% consistently be HAPPY!
My tow cents.
quote:
Originally posted by KHufford
Isn't the standard response rate on mail in 'general' 1%?
That would mean even if you managed 2% you would be doubling the average response rate and that would be considered fantastic?
Agreed, but in this climate your response rate should be much, much more than 2-3%. Much more, just by virtue of lessened competition.
I can send out 1000 in a month and be blown away, work harder than I want to, candidly.
Not closing 32 units per 3000, mind you, but plenty busy.
These days if your mailhouse isn't getting at least 5%, you have to wonder what exactly they ARE sending out.
|
|
|
johnnyboy38109
4357 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2008 : 07:59:03 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by darkstar
>>>>These days if your mailhouse isn't getting at least 5%, you have to wonder what exactly they ARE sending out.
Or IF they really are...
Precisely. |
|
|
KHufford
10407 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2008 : 08:01:26 AM
|
Is that common, mailhouse not even sending out your mail!? Man..
|
|
|
Bob H
303 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2008 : 08:09:15 AM
|
I have been seeing response rates up to 5 times higher than the good 'ol days. Problem is the TD rate. My LO's have to weed through 50 calls a piece in less than a week just to eek out a deal. It's a lot of work going through all of those calls and apps. I have been trying to actually reduce the response rate and increase conversion ratio. It's a tough balance right now. I have to constantly tweek and test data and closely monitor the results.
The one bright spot is I can mail about 1/3 of the # of pieces to get all the response I can handle. My mail expense is way down. Unfortunately, LO's have to work 3 times harder to get one deal. There is no easy way to get around this. Refi business has never been tougher. The demand is monsterous but getting apps approved is a whole different story....... |
|
|
|
Previous Topic | Next Topic |
|
|
|
Search for: 
