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smg2020
38 Posts |
 Posted - 08/14/2008 : 09:59:33 AM
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In today’s turbulent market you need to have a strategic marketing partner to bring you quality inbound traffic. Many of our new client’s we speak with today have never tried marketing before; they have always relied on connections built within the industry. Here is a letter that was sent to us by a new client we signed up last month.
Tom A. from San Antonio, TX:
”I have never had the need to do marketing, but with everything the way it is my loan volume has dried up.” I have never bought leads and couldn't really afford to have a few of my guys sitting around cold calling people to help them out of a loan that they might not even be eligible for. This market today has dried up the new home purchaser’s and my real estate guys are not able to bring me enough business to keep my doors open. I had gotten your email one morning, and it sparked my interest, it seemed like something viable and something that I could make use of. I was leery of trying mail or any marketing program at that point.
I get a lot of junk mail in the mailbox everyday, and I didn’t want to be one of these guys sending out more junk to my neighbors. I spoke with your team at Synergy and the material you send out really sparked my interest, b/c it was something that I would be involved in, something that I wouldn’t automatically rip up and throw in the trash. The response I got from this card was something that I would have never except and has helped me not only keep the doors open but bring back some of my guys that went part time due to the markets. I wish I would have looked at these options before; I could have grown my office a lot more instead of being happy with what was coming in.
For more information please contact our offices.
Synergy Media Group
1-800-313-8422
1-312-794-7912
http://www.smg2020.com
info@smg2020.com |
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321
24 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 10:12:53 AM
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I am hoping to have a similar experience. I have signed up to do 5,00 mailers targeting arms. They have a quick turn time and everything sounds good so far, but the real proof is in the pudding. My drop will hit next week and I will definetely be informing all my BO colleagues as to my personal experience with Synergy Media Group. Hopefully I will have great things to say...
John Walters
Mortgage 1 Solutions
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financeguycaplic
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 10:19:33 AM
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Do you have a loan modification program?
Thanks,
Michael Caplice
KPlus Mortgage
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 11:39:58 AM
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We have customized programs setup for the following:
Loan Modifications
Arm Recast
FHA Streamline
New Purchase
Feel free to give me a call in my office at your leisure
Synergy Media Group
1-800-313-8422
1-312-794-7911 |
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broker3271
459 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 12:40:07 PM
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David
Could you please send me an email through the brokeroutpost with some information regarding your programs.
I am interested in seeing how successful John will be with your program. |
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jamiesmith80
645 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 1:10:46 PM
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| I would be interested in learning more as well...thank you |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 1:28:33 PM
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Gary and Jamie, I have sent you an email through the BO, please check it at your convenience. You may also contact me directly at our offices 1-800-313-8422. Please visit our website at www.smg2020.com
Thanks,
David Lynch
Business Development Director
Synergy Media Group |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 2:45:44 PM
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Marketing today has taken on a whole new face, you have to involve the customer in every step to have a full effect. Each customer has to feel like you are marketing to them individually and directly, therefore making them the decision maker. Marketing today has to be personal and the most personal way is to meet face to face, but who can afford traveling brokers and loan officers. That's why direct mail is the real solution and empowers the end user.
Synergy Media Group
1-800-313-8422 |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 2:52:25 PM
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What you should know about a buyer's market:
More home buyers have a better chance now than at any other time in nearly a half decade to negotiate a home-buying deal that costs less and comes with some concessions thrown in.
In many locations, buyers will find a glut of new homes, more motivated sellers, foreclosures, auctions, short sales and other market conditions that can make it a really good time to buy.
That doesn't mean throw caution to the wind. |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2008 : 07:39:28 AM
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Using Targeted Mailing Lists:
Mass media - radio, television, newspapers, billboards, mass-circulation magazines, sky writing, whatever - don't offer much in the way of audience selectivity. They succeed by reaching just about everyone regardless of their interests, education, occupation, gender, age, religion, hobbies - whatever characteristic you'd care to name. So advertising messages placed in these media often strive for the broadest appeals possible, hoping to interest enough people in whatever product or service is being promoted.
Direct mail in contrast lets you be very selective in terms of audience. This allows you to maximize on your marketing spending by sending out a beautifully presented offer to people who are actually interested in your product or services. |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2008 : 1:51:41 PM
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Direct Mail Does Work...
You've known about direct mail since you were a kid. And you've definitely gotten your share of it in the mailbox through the years. Now you're a business person, and you're seriously considering using direct mail as a marketing option to make your business grow.
You want to know if direct mail is really effective. You want some statistics about direct mail. And you want to know which kinds of products work through direct mail and which don't. You've come to the right place. |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 06:39:42 AM
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Direct Mail is a science.
Some people think that doing direct mail has to be a breeze. You just write up the sales message; print it on a post card, stuff it into an envelope, and mail it. Then you just sit back and wait for the phone's to start ringing, deals to be funded and checks to roll in. Right?
Not quite. It's actually more complicated than that.
What do you want a person in your target audience to do when he or she reads your selling message in the mail?
This question and your answer should be the driving force of everything you do in your marketing campaign. |
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financeguycaplic
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 07:53:57 AM
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I am having a tough time deciding whether to go with internet leads or direct mail. Everything I am reading on BO about internet leads seems like a good cost effective option upfront, but then you have to pay the company when you close a loan. But it seems like guys on BO are closing loans with these leads. Why is direct mail the way to go?
Mike
KPlus Mortgage |
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321
24 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 07:55:50 AM
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Good morning to all,
Today is the day my campaign should hit mail boxes, so we will see if there is a Marketing company that can actually deliver like they say they can. However in their defense Synergy has been very profesional and very thorough through out the whole process. But as we all know, that really doesnt mean anything if you dont get results. So wish me luck and I will keep you all posted.
JW
Your mortgage advisor for the everyday person. |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 10:05:34 AM
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| With Direct Mail you are targeting customers directly and the customer is the one taking control and contacting you, with internet leads you have to pound the phone all day, and sometimes spend up to 20 minutes per call with no resolve. Direct mail is a personal medium and allows you to get 1 on 1 with customers without being face to face, giving consumers an easy connection to local services. We bring the consumer directly to you, now knowing they need help you can tailor the best program for their situation. We are able to empower the consumer and strengthen their trust in the industry. |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2008 : 09:35:44 AM
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John, just checking in to see how your campaign is going? Also let me know if you need anything else or have any questions?
Thanks |
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321
24 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2008 : 3:11:21 PM
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David,
So far things are going well for now. We have taken 29 calls and about 9 good apps. I should have my campaign cost covered when these loans fund. However in order for me to run a second campaign I will need to fall to the 75-90 call range. Here's a question:
If we do end up doing another campaign can we split up the incriments with different loan officers names? I think it would be more personal and effective. Its very confusing for my secretary with my name to determine which calls are really for me.
John Walters
Your mortgage advisor for the everyday person |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2008 : 06:35:26 AM
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| John, thanks for getting back to me. To answer your question we can definitely customize the campaign to multiple loan officers, with their respective names and phone #'s. Keep me posted on the progress and as always I am available if you need anything. |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2008 : 08:32:41 AM
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Direct Mail Copy and Design
Being a handyman around your house can save you a ton of money...if you know what you are doing. Writing and designing your direct mail piece is no different than repairing your home. Do it right, and you're pocketing extra change. Do it wrong, and you may as well be throwing your money into the gutter.
Many business are tempted to write and design their own direct mail piece unaided. It seems easy, and doing so can save you money and be fun at the same time. I'm sure everyone thinks OK how hard can it be to type a few words about my products and get them printed. Actually, writing text that sells is harder than you think. Another key element is the design itself, now some people have a knack for design, but we know what works in this industry and economy.
Tests have proven that people who read direct mail sales letter don't start by actually reading the letter; they skim it quickly, and the first thing they read is the P.S. The postscript is one of the most important parts of a letter, it is a powerful sales tool.
Strong verbiage and design separate the winners from the losers in direct mail.
The quality we build into every Synergy campaign assures you of high residual value at the end of your campaign-real savings that lower your marketing costs! That means higher bottom line profits from every Synergy campaign. |
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financeguycaplic
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2008 : 09:05:16 AM
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David, seems like John is getting a good response, what kind of response can I expect for the southwest states. I would need to split up as well amongst 4 guys. I would like to know more.
Mike,
KPlus Mortgage |
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321
24 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2008 : 10:59:57 AM
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David,
Starting to get swamped with calls, which is a good thing. But do you think you could spread the calls out for me over the course of 4 weeks on the next campaign. I only have 4 lo's, just put a ad in the paper today so hopefully I will get more soon. How long will these calls last for? My total so far is about 43 calls. Thanks for all your help by the way, my partner is also very pleased with your services thus far.
JW |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2008 : 11:06:43 AM
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Mike,
Please send me an email, with your specific states that you would like to target and I will have business development get with you on counts. Also no problem with splitting up an order between 4 guys. Look forward to working with you. |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2008 : 11:21:18 AM
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John,
Sure we can spread the calls out over a 4 week period, also next time if you utilize our customer relationship management system, it might make it easier to track the call flow as well as your LO's. The calls typically come in for about 2 weeks after launch date, but you will still get some residual calls for about 2 weeks. As always if you have any concerns please don't hesitate to call me. |
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financeguycaplic
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2008 : 12:30:52 PM
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David, will do. Are there specific criteria I get to select as well for the count?
Mike
KPlus Mortgage |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2008 : 2:51:58 PM
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Is Direct Mail Dead?
Much is being written nowadays about the death of direct mail. What people are saying is that the internet is making direct mail obsolete. Yeah, the internet is making direct mail obsolete just like it's making television, radio, and telephones obsolete.
When television was invented, people predicted the demise of the movie industry. We all know that hasn't happened. In fact, movies are one of television's biggest advertisers. The TV and movie industries are working together. And that's what's already happening with the internet and direct mail.
Internet leads will not win out over direct mail, when direct mail has such a success rate. |
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seaRick1
916 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2008 : 9:14:05 PM
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| Everybody on this post has like 24 or less posts.....very suspicious for sure. I'm sorry but it does make a difference. There's a lot of scammers in this industry. |
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broker3271
459 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2008 : 10:32:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by seaRick1
Everybody on this post has like 24 or less posts.....very suspicious for sure. I'm sorry but it does make a difference. There's a lot of scammers in this industry.
I'm sorry, but the amount of posts in no way correlates with somebodies suspiciousness. Look at me, I have TWO posts, but I've been a member since 2006.
Do you seriously think that I am some how related to Syngery Media Group?
Maybe people don't post because they have better things to do. I am not implying that you don't. I am just merely making the point that some folks do.
Judge the company on the product, not the amount of posts folks have. |
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FLProcessor
461 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 12:03:27 AM
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Quote:
> the amount of posts in no way correlates with
> somebodies suspiciousness.
Well that's not entirely true. It *does* historically correlate with the "suspiciousness" factor, if you call it that ;-).
With that said, it's the old rule of "just because it's likely to be true, does not mean it is." and if that's what you mean, you're right.
However, when advertising is involved, and the people paritipatcing/giving positive feedback tend to have less participation on this forum, it's always going to be suspect.. Simply because, historically the two certainly do correlate, make no mistake about it.
Now, with that said, another thing you'll often see pointed out -- is the amount of time a company has been in business. This company, SMG has not been in business particularly long.
With all of that said, I find something very interesting about this company. You're rep'ing a 2-4% response rate on direct mail, due to your unique mail piece (staying away from the "standard mailer").
The biggest difference I've noticed, with legitimate versus less legitimate posters on the Outpost, is how they backup their claims. In other words, do they give details to substantiate the claims, do they provide guarantees of their claims, etc.
If someone comes here stating that they will get me a 3% response with true 1% conversion (the numbers implied) on a 1,000 piece drop -- on inexpensive data -- and they'll hold back their billing (charging only USPS), I'll always give them a shot.
Thing of it is... Many people will "guarantee" it, but when it comes time to put the money where the hyperbole is... Well, that doesn't materialize often.
I'm not criticizing SMG in any way. I'm simply more concerned with the incorrect statement that suggests testimonials from low post-counts, or people who most of us don't know about -- are just as good as the testimonials from people we've come to know and trust. And in the same line of thought... Claims are quite different from companies that put their money where their mouth is -- and this is the problem we find most often with marketing companies and their sales collateral.
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Carlsbadd
762 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 06:40:33 AM
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I agree with FLProcessor
We have seen this time and time again from lead companies here on this forum |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 07:36:48 AM
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Tiffany,
I can respect your opinions about being suspect. We are new to the broker outpost, but as an advertising firm we are not new to our industry. Our goal on the BO is to educate users about direct mail and to motivate people to explore the idea of direct marketing. I guess I can see what you are saying, there are different types of BO users, the one's that constantly are posting and others that are reading for educational purposes.
We are here to inform and educate the community on the concepts of direct mail. You may have tried a direct mail campaign that wasn't as efficient, cost-effective, and profitable as you would have liked it to be. This could be what led you to be suspicious about lead companies in general.
Only time will tell, we will have to build ourselves as a member of the outpost and gain the respect of the new and long standing members of this community.
Before you are a leader success is all about growing yourself, when you become a leader success is all about growing others. Quote - Jack Welch
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broker3271
459 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 07:45:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
Quote:
> the amount of posts in no way correlates with
> somebodies suspiciousness.
Well that's not entirely true. It *does* historically correlate with the "suspiciousness" factor, if you call it that ;-).
With that said, it's the old rule of "just because it's likely to be true, does not mean it is." and if that's what you mean, you're right.
However, when advertising is involved, and the people paritipatcing/giving positive feedback tend to have less participation on this forum, it's always going to be suspect.. Simply because, historically the two certainly do correlate, make no mistake about it.
Now, with that said, another thing you'll often see pointed out -- is the amount of time a company has been in business. This company, SMG has not been in business particularly long.
With all of that said, I find something very interesting about this company. You're rep'ing a 2-4% response rate on direct mail, due to your unique mail piece (staying away from the "standard mailer").
The biggest difference I've noticed, with legitimate versus less legitimate posters on the Outpost, is how they backup their claims. In other words, do they give details to substantiate the claims, do they provide guarantees of their claims, etc.
If someone comes here stating that they will get me a 3% response with true 1% conversion (the numbers implied) on a 1,000 piece drop -- on inexpensive data -- and they'll hold back their billing (charging only USPS), I'll always give them a shot.
Thing of it is... Many people will "guarantee" it, but when it comes time to put the money where the hyperbole is... Well, that doesn't materialize often.
I'm not criticizing SMG in any way. I'm simply more concerned with the incorrect statement that suggests testimonials from low post-counts, or people who most of us don't know about -- are just as good as the testimonials from people we've come to know and trust. And in the same line of thought... Claims are quite different from companies that put their money where their mouth is -- and this is the problem we find most often with marketing companies and their sales collateral.
Trust in an online forum is completely relative. Even people on this board whom you would "trust" have things about themselves that are not "trustworthy."
I have no relation to this company, I'm just sick and tired of arbitrary standards for BrokerOutpost based lead companies.
I mean, every lead on company on here is suspect. Every lead company on here has had issues with members. EVERY LEAD COMPANY.
And why wouldn't you give a sweetheart deal like that a shot. I mean, why not just ask for the entire thing up front for free. How magnanimous of you to deign yourself worthy of only paying postage.
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 08:21:28 AM
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The 80/20 rule
For many businesses, the 80/20 rule holds up: 80 percent of your sales come from only 20 percent of your customers. Analyze your sales results to see what extent this maxim is true for you. If there is a certain customer base that you know produces the bulk of your sales then gradually increase the frequency of mailings to that group, and decrease mailings to the rest. Done properly, this technique rebalances your budget so that you're investing in the more profitable segment of your market.
Many of the marketing experts might tell you that running a successful brokerage is simply utilizing your referrals and word of mouth, but with the 80/20 rule of direct mail it will allow you to run your marketing on virtual autopilot. This will allow you to get more customers, as well as get your customers to buy more often.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit Quote - Aristotle |
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FLProcessor
461 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 12:02:36 PM
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Regarding your history and only being new to the Outpost: My comment about being new was related to the fact that your domain was first registered 10/2007 and you work from an executive suite.
Regarding the mention that perhaps we've had a bad experience: I haven't had bad experience with any direct mail companies, for the sole reason mentioned above: we've found those few providers that will put their money where their mouth is, and we do a ton of due diligence prior to contracting someone.
My goal on this forum, is to help others. And every now and again, hope that comes around 360. When I see something along these lines, I certainly don't want to discourage the company who is promoting themselves; however, at the same time -- everyone should be aware of the accurate facts, minus hyperbole. Everyone should know there is no 1% conversion snake-oil -- and if someone claims differently, they should be willing to put their money where their mouth is.
Broker3271 - Yes, exactly. Every vendor making exceptional claims is going to be suspect. However, the simple point I was making, is that YES, we see a lot of shills here, and YES the number of posts DOES relate to the quality of the testimonial. And just as I said, just because statistically it tends to correlate, that does not make it true. Of course you know already know all of this, so I'm not sure about the negative comments on new vendors offering more a more empirical basis for their claims.
As far as an 80/20 claim, here again we return to a lot of hyperbole. Quote "with the 80/20 rule of direct mail it will allow you to run your marketing on virtual autopilot." Umm, what?! By knocking down our universe to the most juicy component (something that all of us do, providing there is any significance/trend in the data) we can run a marketing campaign on "virtual autopilot"? Can you tell me... What does "virtual autopilot" mean in your vocabulary, and how does it relate to the 80/20 rule again?
Or better yet, marketing here generally more successful by using the most straight/simple terms: Tell everyone here what you are specifically going to do for them, and what specifically they will get back. You're not doing #10's or anything else standard, thank god, so you are doing oversized postcards, bumpy mail, flats, novelty mail packages, or what? And you are not using age-old template copy, great -- so you write custom copy for each client? And anyone that signs up with you can expect a 3% return with 1% conversion -- on what, a 5,000 piece drop -- by using datasets 80% smaller than what we've traditionally beeing using, using what type of leads (ARM resets or non-reset RE/title data, triggers, FHA/streamines, etc)?
Seriously, I'm all for your success - but understand we see this same sort of "I have something that will double your conversion -- and it's all mystical" sort of thing all of the time. Of course it never materializes. |
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financeguycaplic
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 12:41:15 PM
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| Can someone who has used them before let me know details via the BO. |
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321
24 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 1:03:50 PM
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It really does sound like you have way too much time on your hands. It sounds like you dont have enough deals to process. What is this chapter 2 of your new book how to scrutinize marketing companies and not grow marbles to try them. Just Kidding LOL, But on a serious note. You have to be willing to always explore the idea of trying something new in today's market. Now if there is something your doing thats working please let us all know so we can go out and do it. As far as our industry many of the scandalous brokers have gotten cleaned out (thank goodness) but there is still many copy cat brokers out there. Im in the middle of a campaign right now and saw this thread and was a little disturbed by it so I had to add my 2 cents. I will try and do my best to keep all of you posted as to the status of my campaign. As of day 4 things are going well thus far, but we will see what funds and what my call volume is at the end of my campaign.
John Walters
Your mortgage advisor for the everyday person. |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 2:44:56 PM
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Tiffany,
There are many unanswered questions that you seem to have. I understand that you are a BO veteran and would love the opportunity to speak with you. Instead of going back and forth on this thread, please forward me your contact info at your leisure, so I can personally speak with you directly to answer your questions and concerns. Look forward to speaking with you.
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FLProcessor
461 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 3:50:48 PM
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David, I'm not looking to do business with you or get information privately. There were several superfluous claims and if you'd like to be successful marketing on this forum, I'm pointing out a way to do so -- to give people more tangible data / specifics.
I made it clear in the beginning of my post. I'm not here to be self-serving, but to help others -- if you're suspect of that, you're welcome to look through my posting history. Just last week I hit on another post where someone claimed unrealistic response rates, doing no more than trying to help people get realistic ideas of their returns.
I've asked very specific questions -- there is no need to go 'back and forth' if they are answered just as specifically -- and you get the free bump / exposure in the process.
To 321 - No one is criticizing anyone here, excluding your off-topic dig that I have too much time on my hands (an age-old comment by anyone looking for a cheap/unrelated method of countering a more topical arguement, btw). I asked specific questions. If someone is interested in promoting themselves, generally they encourage interacting publicly. Historically within this forum, those who do not, generally have something to hide. Just have a look through the past Announcements. |
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broker3271
459 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 9:02:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
David, I'm not looking to do business with you or get information privately. There were several superfluous claims and if you'd like to be successful marketing on this forum, I'm pointing out a way to do so -- to give people more tangible data / specifics.
I made it clear in the beginning of my post. I'm not here to be self-serving, but to help others -- if you're suspect of that, you're welcome to look through my posting history. Just last week I hit on another post where someone claimed unrealistic response rates, doing no more than trying to help people get realistic ideas of their returns.
FL Processor, Here's my problem with your whole line of questioning: No where in this persons posts have I found claims that one will recieve a 3% response on a direct mailer and that one will close 1% of the leads mailed as you claim that he said in your previous post.
quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
Tell everyone here what you are specifically going to do for them, and what specifically they will get back. You're not doing #10's or anything else standard, thank god, so you are doing oversized postcards, bumpy mail, flats, novelty mail packages, or what? And you are not using age-old template copy, great -- so you write custom copy for each client? And anyone that signs up with you can expect a 3% return with 1% conversion -- on what, a 5,000 piece drop -- by using datasets 80% smaller than what we've traditionally beeing using, using what type of leads (ARM resets or non-reset RE/title data, triggers, FHA/streamines, etc)?
Frankly, this quote above shows me your complete lack of knowledge regarding direct mail. #10 Envelopes, done right, can kick ass. "custom copy" is important, and marketed the right way you do well.
I don't see anybody questioning Raymonds claims that he can get 20% responses on his Loan Modification mailers...You're simplying picking on somebody because he is new, and showing a complete lack of knowledge in the process.
On the same token, David you really show explain more about your product instead of just speaking in generalities here. |
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FLProcessor
461 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 10:10:35 PM
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Banker --
By your quote "showing a complete lack of knowledge" - it appears you want to attack me personally, when I'm simply asking very specific questions because of terms like "virtual autopilot" marketing due to an "80/20" rule, which quite frankly, is a bit on the fringe.
I took the response rates from his website and the earlier poster who it was implied to be a shill or somehow related. If I was wrong about his claims, that's a perfect point for him to discuss - tell us all that his response rate is actually lower than 3%.
I'm not discrediting the person, I'm pointing out facts and asking him to clarify. You, on the other hand, seem to be trying to make it personal.
There is certainly nothing wrong with #10's; however, the truth is that all things being equal and your "done correctly" argument -- other formats can beat it. More importantly, I brought this up because the entire premise of the poster's pitch (if you bothered to visit their site) is that they have a unique mail-piece which is responsible for upgrading .25-.50 response rates to 2-4%.
I don't question any claim about high response rates on loan mods, because they are true. I see people get 15% on well targeted load mod flyers (with a few key words) all day long. That, however, has absolutely nothing to do with soliciting refinance or purchase business.
As far as my "complete lack of knowledge regarding direct mail" - it's absolutely amazing that you are so brilliant that you're able to deduce that simply from my questioning him about what format he is offering, which he claims is 6 times higher than the average response rate.
Never mind the fact that we market 100% through direct mail, in Florida, which being an expert in Direct Mail, you know is one of the three worst states for response rate. Let me repeat: no telemarketing, no Internet, etc. In short, we're a company that is still in business, doing only direct mail, after the 'credit crunch' in one of the most difficult markets -- where even if you an get a good response, the LTV is generally much worse than the rest of the country.
In fact, I'm so confident (yet I always like to learn more), I'll make you and offer. I'll put $5,000 in an escrow account (say iEscrow) if you start by doing the same. I will put out a mailing of 10,000 pieces in any format that I choose. You can do the same, of course being limited to a #10 media. We'll track the response on two independent toll-free numbers audited through the standard channels. The only rule being that the mailpieces must generate real responses, not freebie-only seekers, desperate high-LTV business, loan-mod style callers, etc -- and all 20,000 leads have to come from an impartial source (no salting). To be absolutely sure, we'll set it up against an ITA dataset with 720+, in Florida. Winner will take the pot. I’m serious as a heart-attack, I’ve put my controls against others on several occasions and the best money I’ve ever spent – is the occasion when I’ve lost (although I’ve never “bet” in this way, it was simply an incentive for marketers to put their money where their mouth is, like I referred to with David). And.. After all, if you can prove that #10’s “done right” can beat a flat that is “done right”, you’ll save me the $5,000 on my next mailing (or two) alone.
Finally, I'm not "picking" on the guy. *EVERY* time I see someone post very generally, providing information that appears to be a little overzealous -- I like to step in and mention that it might be a bit over the top. It doesn't matter whether it's someone like Titan (whose been here for a very long time), who claims that SnapPak's are the holy-grail, or a dozen other recent posters who post very general things, such as "Make $5,000 for every turn down." (another recent thread I chimed in on, with the same sort of questions). Or told someone that LMB isn't all they claim to be, and that unless they'll ptu their money where their mouth is, don't trust their response figures, which are quite exaggerated. In fact, you mentioned that no one questions Raymond - check back to last week - someone claimed that Raymond was getting insanely high response and I quickly jumped-in and tried to clarify that they must have misunderstood, because those numbers were not possible.
I'm certainly not the one making personal insults or claiming David can’t part the sea. Instead, I simply suggested that he be more specific and/or put something behind the claims which are significantly higher than the norm. Whether someone has 10,000 posts or 5, I am just trying to help people from making the same mistake that I've watched hundreds of others make -- buying into hyperbole without digging into the details.
Not one point I’ve made claims he is lying or cannot do what he says he can. I asked for details and you turned it into a personal attack.
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broker3271
459 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 08:06:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
Banker --
In fact, I'm so confident (yet I always like to learn more), I'll make you and offer. I'll put $5,000 in an escrow account (say iEscrow) if you start by doing the same. I will put out a mailing of 10,000 pieces in any format that I choose. You can do the same, of course being limited to a #10 media. We'll track the response on two independent toll-free numbers audited through the standard channels. The only rule being that the mailpieces must generate real responses, not freebie-only seekers, desperate high-LTV business, loan-mod style callers, etc -- and all 20,000 leads have to come from an impartial source (no salting). To be absolutely sure, we'll set it up against an ITA dataset with 720+, in Florida. Winner will take the pot. I’m serious as a heart-attack, I’ve put my controls against others on several occasions and the best money I’ve ever spent – is the occasion when I’ve lost (although I’ve never “bet” in this way, it was simply an incentive for marketers to put their money where their mouth is, like I referred to with David). And.. After all, if you can prove that #10’s “done right” can beat a flat that is “done right”, you’ll save me the $5,000 on my next mailing (or two) alone.
I'd want the metric to be cost per call. I'd want the dollar amount to be much larger, and I'm serious. I'd want you to put up $50,000.00 in an escrow account, I'm not familiar with I-Escrow, but a quick perusal of their website shows that they may suffice.
I'd want to draw up an iron-clad agreement and I'd definately want to adjust the criteria a little bit. I'd prefer FHA, although if Necessary ARM's could be done. Your starting score is too high, we'd have to work on that.
I'd also want an independantly verified invoice from your printer showing exactly what you paid. We'd have to use the same type of postage. There could be other terms, but If what I outlined above is Kosher let me know.
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 08:44:25 AM
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I just wanted to say that I appreciate all the insight and encouragement to market properly in this community.
Let me get straight to the point and answer all of FLProcessor's questions, so that all the BO users who either agree or disagree with her claims can visualize the substance to our claims.
This can be said, because we speak to over 500 brokers a day, and by a Synergy broker survey, #10's just simply don't work. We have a simple questionnaire when we speak to our clients to assess what they have done in the past and what has worked for them. Now I am not saying that it is not working for you "FLProcessor" but I'm simply saying that we are getting direct feedback from the brokers themselves and the majority of the calls they receive are people that are frankly sick and tired of getting them, they know what they are and they are not fooled anymore.
Traditionally for years government mailers, tax envelopes, tear offs, and standard letter inserts have worked for mail marketing campaigns. In today's market and in this industry the consumer is more educated due to the internet and media, and the over saturation of these pieces has created an awareness to the marketing material that floats in the mail. Lets face it everyone get at least 5 to 6 pieces of junk mail a week if not more. The byproduct of these types of mailers will overall deliver a mediocre response.
What sets us apart is our technology strategy to create the most optimal set of data obtained via our three stage screening process. We take a compilation of courthouse records, credit bureau statistics, as well as title and lender verification; these three datasets are then screened via our custom data mining Elysium software application. This program eliminates virtually all negative resources to filter for the most optimal target market of consumers.
As far as the 80/20 rule claim and how it relates to direct marketing and virtual autopilot, I was simply just saying is that you need to analyze your profit results to determine which of your customers contribute 80 percent of your profits. Invest more of your promotional dollars in this most profitable segment to gain more referrals at the end of the day. If you have done successful business with a client you can keep marketing them to get them to buy more often, which simply means to create referral business for you, in turn they are helping you find customers just like them. If you maintain a good database you can discover alot about your customers and their buying habits and a lack there of, hence the 80/20 rule can run on virtual autopilot if done correctly. |
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FLProcessor
461 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 1:25:20 PM
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Banker - The simple fact of the matter is that putting $50,000 on the lines leaves too much incentive to be pull tricks. Surely if you are serious, you realize that. For example, how in the world are we going to appoint a truly objective party to determine the winner and release the escrow? Or which lead company we’re purchasing from (for example, I pay very low rates with one particular lead vendor who is very good – but I suspect with $50k on the line you’re not going to use them for our control)? $5,000 isn't worth messing around -- but $50,000 and there is no question in my mind -- there would be no way to determine an honest result. More importantly, I think you're playing a bit of a game. If you're so confident and have so much liquid ready to go, lets do the $5k -- it should be chump change for you -- put it up and we'll send mail next Monday. If it's not worth your time, you're welcome to say that -- but don't come back with pie-in-the-sky crap like this, come on.
Further, your entire point (Banker) was that by my suggesting other media’s (other than #10's) perform better (which btw, you were complaining about, despite the fact that I was speaking topically in the context of David's website) and that as a result, I know nothing about direct mail.
So again, there will be no cost-per-lead in this competition. It's simply an overall numbers game -- since clearly … according to you … I'm wrong that other medias perform better than #10's. And of course, it's not only that I'm wrong, but a complete idiot for having an opinion that anything could outperform a #10. Or would you like to give me a new interpretation of your comment on this?
David - I think there may have been a miscommunication. I am not the one who said #10's are great -- that was Banker. I was the one that took the time to read your marketing collateral, and note that you claim to be able to improve response rates over 600% due to the mail-piece. My question was, there are not all that many types of mailpieces out there (when you group them into the response each one will generate with the same copy/etc) -- and unless I've missed something, none of them increase response by 600%. Well, perhaps a couple -- but that is only if you take extreme ends of the spectrum, and I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt assuming you wouldn’t twist numbers like that.
However, there were several questions beyond that -- and I believe those were overlooked. To answer those, you could start with the RESPONSE RATE, and/or how you guarantee that, and go from there -- to the features of what options you offer in the control (beyond mail piece, to the list, copy, attachments, two-step systems, etc).
And, I'm still confused on how the 80/20 rule applies to using your services. For example, are you saying that you primarily market to a broker's existing database? I assume not, and if that is the case, what type of leads are you selling -- and what types of ancillary data do you have, which I cannot buy from a competitive data provider -- that has statistically significant data to optimize and reduce the universe by 80%?
After all, if you have data with a correlated statistical significance that allows me to reduce my universe by more than 50%, and this is not run of the mill filtering criteria we all use already, I’d pay a ton for that.
You see -- most people that are selling something, are a little clearer on what they are selling and why, specifically, it’s better than the next guy. I'm just trying to understand; what sort of mailings are your representing you'll do for people ... what types of lists do you have available ... is this something you'll only do turnkey or you work with existing printers/mailhouses, etc ... that sort of thing (of course the specific questions still remain, above).
Finally, I have two additional questions.
(1) You said you speak to 500 (five hundred) brokers per day? Was that a type-o?
(2) You said that you were providing information so people can agree/disagree with my "claims". Which claims are those, specifically?
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broker3271
459 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 1:56:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
Banker - The simple fact of the matter is that putting $50,000 on the lines leaves too much incentive to be pull tricks. Surely if you are serious, you realize that.
I'm "Broker3271" not "Banker", just to clariy. Yes I am serious, but don't call me surely (Sorry).
Simply put, $5,000.00 isn't worth my time. $50,000.00 would be worth it.
quote:
For example, how in the world are we going to appoint a truly objective party to determine the winner and release the escrow? Or which lead company we’re purchasing from (for example, I pay very low rates with one particular lead vendor who is very good – but I suspect with $50k on the line you’re not going to use them for our control)?
If you're talking about ITA data you can just go to the source. If we're talking about the same thing that is we could just go to First American.
quote:
$5,000 isn't worth messing around -- but $50,000 and there is no question in my mind -- there would be no way to determine an honest result.
That's why we'd have to draw up an agreement, which I'm more than willing to do.
quote:
More importantly, I think you're playing a bit of a game. If you're so confident and have so much liquid ready to go, lets do the $5k -- it should be chump change for you -- put it up and we'll send mail next Monday. If it's not worth your time, you're welcome to say that -- but don't come back with pie-in-the-sky crap like this, come on.
Minor point, next Monday would be Labor day, so the earliest we could actually put a mailer out is next Tuesday.
quote:
Further, your entire point (Banker)
Broker 
quote:
was that by my suggesting other media’s (other than #10's) perform better (which btw, you were complaining about, despite the fact that I was speaking topically in the context of David's website) and that as a result, I know nothing about direct mail.
When you say "media's" I'm going to assume you were talking about mailers.
quote:
So again, there will be no cost-per-lead in this competition. It's simply an overall numbers game -- since clearly … according to you … I'm wrong that other medias perform better than #10's. And of course, it's not only that I'm wrong, but a complete idiot for having an opinion that anything could outperform a #10. Or would you like to give me a new interpretation of your comment on this?
It's not simply a numbers game, or rather it is, but it's not simply a number of calls game. It's what you paid, divided by how many calls you recieved.
I'll break it down for you: Broker A pays $3,500.00 to put out a 10k piece mailer and recieve 130 calls
Broker B pays $4,400.00 to put out a 10k piece mailer and recieves 150 calls.
Assume that the quality of the lists and the targeted market are exactly the same.
You would say that "Broker B" would have a more effective mailer, but many marketing experts would say that "Broker A" has a more effective mailer, and it doesn't take a math wizard to figure out why.
The amount of calls that one recieves cannot be the primary metric when considering a mailer, it's quite simply what you paid per call.
If you want to get real, it comes down to your cost-per-deal closed, but that depends on too many factors to be a real consideration. |
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DFinnerty
9 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 2:09:41 PM
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| I'm new here and I have only made a few posts. Reading down the thread it was very suspicious to see the lack of posts. That being said FLP you seem to be legit (not saying you other guys are not) is there a direct mailer company you would recomend to me? |
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broker3271
459 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 2:24:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by DFinnerty
I'm new here and I have only made a few posts. Reading down the thread it was very suspicious to see the lack of posts. That being said FLP you seem to be legit (not saying you other guys are not) is there a direct mailer company you would recomend to me?
Which, PS, is totally my point. I've been a member of the BO longer than FLP, and yet I'm somehow more suspicious due to my lack of posts...
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DFinnerty
9 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 2:36:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by broker3271
quote:
Originally posted by DFinnerty
I'm new here and I have only made a few posts. Reading down the thread it was very suspicious to see the lack of posts. That being said FLP you seem to be legit (not saying you other guys are not) is there a direct mailer company you would recomend to me?
Which, PS, is totally my point. I've been a member of the BO longer than FLP, and yet I'm somehow more suspicious due to my lack of posts...
no offense to you but yeah,,pretty much |
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smg2020
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 2:40:40 PM
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Listen I appreciate your insight and opinions on my thread, but it is throwing the thread way off topic. This thread has obviously gone in the wrong direction, I understand what you are trying to get across. It simply seems like you are trying to get information which is fine and I can understand that, but I think it misdirects other people. What I was simply trying to do on this thread was show the effectiveness of direct mail. Our main point is that people don't buy based on what they read on a forum, we like to speak to our clients, and meet our clients face to face if possible. There are different types of announcements on this forum, different types of people, different types of subjects and different types of writers as well as readers, I have no problem answering questions lets create a separate Q/A thread so we can get to the point and not barrage the thread with other comments that have nothing to do with the original topic. Lets respect the BO community.
I'll create a new announcement specifically replying to your questions so that you can better understand our product.
Enjoy your weekend, and hope all is well. |
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broker3271
459 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 2:51:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by DFinnerty
no offense to you but yeah,,pretty much
That's funny...So literally were saying that We are more suspicious because of our lack of posts...Alright Newb |
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FLProcessor
461 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 2:52:52 PM
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<QUOTE>
It's not simply a numbers game, or rather it is, but it's not simply a number of calls game. It's what you paid, divided by how many calls you recieved.
</QUOTE>
Heh, yes, I think I get that. I am fairly certain that I wouldn't be in business if I did not. But I think you missed the original point. Unless I am mistaken, it was suggested that I was an idiot (or actually, that I showed my ignorance as to knowing absolutely nothing about direct mail) because I suggested that certain media's (yes, I'm referring to alternative mail-piece design) can outperform #10's.
Regarding your cost-breakdown, obviously it's common-sense. However, here is a little something for those people stumbling upon this thread who are interested in doing direct mail: if your leads cost more, use a more expensive mail-piece. In other words, their is a certain diminishing ROI. If you use cheap leads, you don't want to invest in an expensive mailpiece. However, if you're mailing to triggers, for example, you better be willing to spend something to make that per-lead cost payoff.
For example, say you spend $1 per trigger (I'm not going to disclose what our per-lead cost is, to protect lead resellers, so lets just use Raymond's numbers). If you send a 5,000 piece mailing with a per-piece cost of 40 cents (again, using some of Raymonds's numbers) you're looking at $5k for leads and $2k for mailing ($7k). Say you DOUBLE your mailpiece cost to 80 cents, and that increasing your *conversion* by 25% of your current conversion. In that case, you're only spending 20% more to get a 25% increase.
CONVERSELY, if you go from 40 cents to 80 cents on an ITA, then generally that would not be smart. Let say again you're paying standard rates, say 20/cents per. Doubling your mail-piece cost is going to increase your expense by 66%, rendering it worthless.
Therefore, if you invest in expensive data, such as FirstAm resets, etc -- then you're far better off placing a little extra money towards the mailpiece. However, if you use cheap data, then maybe Broker is correct -- maybe a #10 is the way to go.
However, that is all just to lend some help to others out there. Because Broker's original point, is that I clearly have no idea what I'm doing by suggesting that something can outperform a #10.
And my point, was that (a) there is no need to make such personal attacks, (b) how is it possible to deduce this by a simple, single, subjective statement such as this, and (c) the day I swear that I know everything about direct mail and stop listening to constructive feedback (such as the suggestion that #10's can outperform flats -- without concern for costs, which I find hard to believe, but am willing to listen) -- well, that's the day I lose my ability to market well.
After all, if direct response marketing is about nothing else -- it's about testing, testing, testing. Or, in other words, learning, learning, learning -- and keeping an open mind, open mind, open mind.
Broker, I'd still be happy to take your deal, but honestly, I just don't trust that in a "real world application" there is any way to "win" in that situation. There is no way someone is parting with $50,000 without a lot of drama that I don't need. If you want to talk about what would make it worth your while, and a way to keep it accurate, I'm game. eg- I would never pay FirstAm pricing; however, we have a rep and I'm happy to do so for this particular contest. As far as printing, we own a stake in a printing company because we do all VDP, which is difficult to do outsourced, quickly. We bought into them, just to be able to do this (we don't get involved in their busines, we're only responsible for our portion of the lease/equipment, and receive no-markup pricing in return). I'm not about to give that up, and I can imagine you'd cry foul if we used this to our advantage in your numbers game (although, again, the entire point was to compare your #10 campaign to ours, using our media of choice -- and if you don't want to agree to that, then I'd respectfully ask you to rescind your suggestion that I'm an idiot for suggesting that there are higher response alternatives to a #10).
DFinnerty-
I have never found a direct mail company that I'm 100% content with. Generally speaking, it's a lessor of evils. In other words, I can direct you towards dozens of people that are stand-up, reliable, etc -- but they are not neccesarily going to be able to get mail out daily or with same-day turn-times. Or, for example, say you wanted to find the best SnapPak mailer (on this forum, Titan is the most prominent). Yet, that does not mean they'll be the best at something else.
In short, if you have a specific type of campaign / benchmark upon which you base your decision, I can probably steer you towards someone here -- but I wouldn't say that I would give you a "recommendation" as I've never used anyone advertising on this forum -- and the company I do presently use, is a co-op arrangement we've worked out, due to our volume (and we only market internally, we do not "sell" mailing/printing services of any sort).
Also, open it in another forum (so we don't hijack David's post, although he's getting plenty of free bumps and good exposure with this one) and we'll see if we can get Raymond involved, who although I have not used, he is very active and replies with very specific/helpful information. That's not to say you'll use him, but I believe we can count on him to help you with more specifics.
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FLProcessor
461 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 3:04:45 PM
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Sorry - SMG/David replied while I cranked out that post above.
David, if you read my original reply -- you'll notice that I'm pointing out something you'll notice to be true, if you take the time to review things historically.
That is this simple fact: the people who give specific information, the exact type of information I've mentioned here -- are the people who are generally very successful here.
I don't want your thread to go off-topic, but quite frankly, I believe the BO members have received more information from my exchange with you and Broker, than without it. If I am nothing, I am against off-topic posting.
Therefore, if you'd like to post again, with specific details about what you are offering, that would be great.
However, I'm still very curious about my final two questions. Could you address those in-context, here:
(1) You said you speak to 500 (five hundred) brokers per day? Was that a type-o?
(2) You said that you were providing information so people can agree/disagree with my "claims". Which claims are those, specifically? I'm concerned because I didn't feel I was making claims, but really doign more of trying to get to the bottom of what you are offering / what you put behind it?
SIDENOTE to Broker: I have been a member here much longer than the few years that my account shows; however, at some point my original BO account appears to have been lost and I was forced to create a new account. |
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broker3271
459 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 3:18:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by FLProcessor
Tell everyone here what you are specifically going to do for them, and what specifically they will get back. You're not doing #10's or anything else standard, thank god,
quote:
Frankly, this quote above shows me your complete lack of knowledge regarding direct mail. #10 Envelopes, done right, can kick ass.
Your quote above, and my response from a couple of posts ago. There is nowhere in this post where i say that #10 envelopes can outperform the response rate of alternative direct mail pieces. I'm simply saying that, DONE CORRECTLY, they are very effective, and in my experience, they're unbeatable in terms of a "Cost-per-call" metric.
Now, knowing that you can get wholesale pricing from a printer changes the equation, nothing can beat that.
I am curious about one thing, when you refer to the typical outsourced time to do VDP (Variable Data Printing, unless I'm not understanding), what did you experience when it was outsourced, and how long does it take to when you've got a stake in a printer? We do VDP as well, but even when we do Match Mailing it still doesn't take more than 48 hours from start to finish, and that's the max.
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