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raygod0510
66 Posts |
 Posted - 07/14/2008 : 11:12:13 AM
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| If an appraisal has been completed and the case is transefrred from the orginal lender to a new lender, can the new lender request a new appraisal? |
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MortgageBoarder
4016 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 11:14:39 AM
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| Yes, the lender is not required to use that particular appraisal. The Case# would be dropped from the current report through FHA connection, and would be assigned to the new report once you get the new Appraiser's information. |
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raygod0510
66 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 11:17:57 AM
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Im more concerned about the appraised value. BOA had this deal, their appraiser can back $5000 lower than the sale price.
I'm being told that the orginal value stays with the property no matter what.
Is this correct |
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MortgageBoarder
4016 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 11:22:55 AM
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It stays in FHA connection if BOFA inputs the info. Meaning your new lender will see this, and good luck getting an UW to go with your increased value.
You are going to have to get a new, stonger appraisal than BOFA's in order to have any chance of disputing the lower value. |
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Hopland
2089 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 8:33:10 PM
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The life of the appraisal is 6 months and runs with the property. When a borrower requests a change of lender the older lender is supposed to send the new lender the appraisal.
There are only a few acceptable reasons for obtain an appraiser reassignment and none of those reasons include finding an appraiser who will appraise the property at a higher value.
Slimey brokers and slimey appraisers are a plague on this industry and contributed to the meltdown in sub-prime which is now extended into all areas. It looks like slimy brokers are now creeping into FHA. I can't believe you two are posting publicly of a what could be interpreted as a conspiracy to defraud HUD.
quote:
CHAPTER 4
CANCELLING CASES AND TRANSFERRING CASE NUMBERS
4-1 CANCELLING CASES. The lender must notify the appropriate HOC via FHA Connection, or its functional equivalent, to close outstanding files and cancel the FHA case number if the origination and closing of a loan will not be completed or if FHA mortgage insurance endorsement will not be sought.
4-2 TRANSFERS OF CASE NUMBERS BETWEEN LENDERS.
A. New Lender. Lenders are expected to cooperate in the transfer of case numbers. At the request of a borrower, the case number is to be assigned to the new lender using the Case Transfer function in FHA Connection. The transferring lender is not entitled to a fee for the transfer of a streamline refinance case number, regardless of the stage of processing the loan is in. The transferring lender may be entitled to any lock-in fee collected from the borrower at the time of application. The transferring lender is required to provide the new lender with the appraisal but is not required to provide any processing documents. If processing documents are transferred, the fee for providing these documents is to be negotiated between the lenders. No separate charge to the borrower is authorized for this transfer.
quote:
Chapter 1: Paragraph 1-5 explains that FHA may reject a mortgage for insurance if FHA
determines that any certification or required document is false, misleading or constitutes
fraud or misrepresentation on the part of any party. Paragraph 1-7 updates information
about FHA maximum loan limits. Paragraph 1-11 updates information about mortgage
insurance premiums (MIP) and includes the new upfront MIP (UFMIP) refund schedules.
Paragraph 1-17 describes HUD’s new organizational structure and Home Ownership
Centers (HOCs).
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jbanske
22 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 9:16:35 PM
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Amen to that. This is exactly what has caused the AMC's issue to arise.
AMC's will cause such a problem with turn around times and higher fees...
All because someone needed an xtra 5k.
If you have real MLS data not considered in the original appraisal,then ask the original appraiser for a reconsideration of value.
quote:
Originally posted by Hopland
The life of the appraisal is 6 months and runs with the property. When a borrower requests a change of lender the older lender is supposed to send the new lender the appraisal.
There are only a few acceptable reasons for obtain an appraiser reassignment and none of those reasons include finding an appraiser who will appraise the property at a higher value.
Slimey brokers and slimey appraisers are a plague on this industry and contributed to the meltdown in sub-prime which is now extended into all areas. It looks like slimy brokers are now creeping into FHA. I can't believe you two are posting publicly of a what could be interpreted as a conspiracy to defraud HUD.
quote:
CHAPTER 4
CANCELLING CASES AND TRANSFERRING CASE NUMBERS
4-1 CANCELLING CASES. The lender must notify the appropriate HOC via FHA Connection, or its functional equivalent, to close outstanding files and cancel the FHA case number if the origination and closing of a loan will not be completed or if FHA mortgage insurance endorsement will not be sought.
4-2 TRANSFERS OF CASE NUMBERS BETWEEN LENDERS.
A. New Lender. Lenders are expected to cooperate in the transfer of case numbers. At the request of a borrower, the case number is to be assigned to the new lender using the Case Transfer function in FHA Connection. The transferring lender is not entitled to a fee for the transfer of a streamline refinance case number, regardless of the stage of processing the loan is in. The transferring lender may be entitled to any lock-in fee collected from the borrower at the time of application. The transferring lender is required to provide the new lender with the appraisal but is not required to provide any processing documents. If processing documents are transferred, the fee for providing these documents is to be negotiated between the lenders. No separate charge to the borrower is authorized for this transfer.
quote:
Chapter 1: Paragraph 1-5 explains that FHA may reject a mortgage for insurance if FHA
determines that any certification or required document is false, misleading or constitutes
fraud or misrepresentation on the part of any party. Paragraph 1-7 updates information
about FHA maximum loan limits. Paragraph 1-11 updates information about mortgage
insurance premiums (MIP) and includes the new upfront MIP (UFMIP) refund schedules.
Paragraph 1-17 describes HUD’s new organizational structure and Home Ownership
Centers (HOCs).
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kalee3415
193 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 9:23:13 PM
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The more important question is whether the appraisal has been logged in FHA connection. If it was completed but not logged you can order a new one. If the original company with the case number had the appraisal done AND completed the appraisal logging function in FHA connection then it is effective for 6 months and you have no choice but to use it. You can tell in a case query whether the appraisal was logged or not.
quote:
Originally posted by raygod0510
If an appraisal has been completed and the case is transefrred from the orginal lender to a new lender, can the new lender request a new appraisal?
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MortgageBoarder
4016 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 9:24:17 PM
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I am in NO WAY suggesting that and WOULD NEVER suggest fraud!! There are cases where a new lender requires the report to be done by their own AMC. That is all I was refering to and a higher value would probably never be accepted unless the previous appraiser just flat out did not do the report up to USPAP standards.
I pride myself in being very ethical and knowledgeable, so if I am wrong please feel free to correct me at any time. But stating that I am suggesting fraud is an attack that is 1 uncalled for and 2 invalid!!
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Caterina
9 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 9:29:03 PM
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Mortgage Boarder,
I don't read Hopland's comment as directed towards you, but to Raygod. |
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waynepbright
3678 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 10:01:49 PM
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YUP, EACH LENDER CAN REQUIRE THEIR OWN APPRAISAL BASED ON THEIR OWN ARSENAL OF APPRAISERS TO SELECT FROM. TYPICALLY ...... |
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tmd354
34 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 12:56:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by MortgageBoarder
I am in NO WAY suggesting that and WOULD NEVER suggest fraud!! There are cases where a new lender requires the report to be done by their own AMC. That is all I was refering to and a higher value would probably never be accepted unless the previous appraiser just flat out did not do the report up to USPAP standards.
I pride myself in being very ethical and knowledgeable, so if I am wrong please feel free to correct me at any time. But stating that I am suggesting fraud is an attack that is 1 uncalled for and 2 invalid!!
You obviously do not know the FHA rules regarding appraisals and case numbers. Once an apprasial has been done and logged into the FHA Connection system, that is the only appraisal that FHA will consider as a valid appraisal on that property for 6 months. If the borrower switches lenders, the new lender is stuck having to use that appraisal and cannot use their own appraiser or another appraisal on that property. The new lender has no right or no ability to have a new appraisal done by their AMC or anyone else for that matter.....they don't even have the right to require the appraiser to change the lender's name on the appraisal....but the FHA does specifically allow the new lender to use the appraisal, even if it is not in the new lender's name. |
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tmd354
34 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 01:00:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by waynepbright
YUP, EACH LENDER CAN REQUIRE THEIR OWN APPRAISAL BASED ON THEIR OWN ARSENAL OF APPRAISERS TO SELECT FROM. TYPICALLY ......
You need to read the FHA guidelines because you do not have any idea what you are talking about. Once a case number is ordered and an appraisal is completed on a property and logged into the FHA Connection system, that's it, that is the only acceptable appraisal that the FHA will accept on that property for the next six months except under very limited circumstances, which do not include an appraiser having to be on a particular lender's list. |
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raygod0510
66 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 06:46:12 AM
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I'm in no way trying to commit fraud.
I truly feel the appraiser missed the value. Agent and customer set sale price, find customer to purchase at sale price, now deal is dying because appraiser missed teh value by $5000
If I sent three appraiser's out to appraise any property. FHA or not, I guarantee I'd get three different values. That's why I don't understand how FHA will only accept one appraisal and lock it into the property for 6months. That don't make sense. |
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jbanske
22 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 06:51:30 AM
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question: I cant recall this in the 4155. or 4150
can you direct me?
I have originated FHA loans that had prior appraisal that I never submitted. MY Bank requires that we use AMC and thats it. perhaps the underwriter had to address and I never knew about it due to values being the same or even my appraiser coming in at a lower value?
anyway, I like to know my facts and your direction would be appreciated
quote:
Originally posted by tmd354
quote:
Originally posted by waynepbright
YUP, EACH LENDER CAN REQUIRE THEIR OWN APPRAISAL BASED ON THEIR OWN ARSENAL OF APPRAISERS TO SELECT FROM. TYPICALLY ......
You need to read the FHA guidelines because you do not have any idea what you are talking about. Once a case number is ordered and an appraisal is completed on a property and logged into the FHA Connection system, that's it, that is the only acceptable appraisal that the FHA will accept on that property for the next six months except under very limited circumstances, which do not include an appraiser having to be on a particular lender's list.
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mcmoney
312 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 06:51:40 AM
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| In this market they won't drop the value by $5k and call it a day? |
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Hopland
2089 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 07:28:22 AM
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quote:
Agent and customer set sale price, find customer to purchase at sale price,
What you're describing is price, not market value.
The first few posts in this thread can be summarized or paraphrased as:
Can I get a new appraisal because I am concerned that the value on the old appraisal is less than the purchase price? Yes, as long as the first lender did not log the appraisal (there will be no record of it) you can get a new appaiser assigned to the case.
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MortgageBoarder
4016 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 08:01:57 AM
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Dude you are misinterpreting my replies. I clearly noted that his value WILL be noted by the new lender and the only way he could use a new report is if the new lender required it. I was trying to be professional by not saying, no buddy you can not cheat FHA.
As I said above, if I am wrong than I am open to correction but don't put words in my mouth! I have ordered new appraisals for 2 loans that had horrible reports completed by LandAmerica in the last 6 months. I presented my case with the multiple errors and mishaps and my DE underwriter said we were ok getting a new report.
If you haven't seen, I have actually bashed people for trying to get increased/inflated values or similar tactics to cheat the system recently on here.
Stop with the anger, not everyone is out to committ feaud!!
quote:
Originally posted by Hopland
quote:
Agent and customer set sale price, find customer to purchase at sale price,
What you're describing is price, not market value.
The first few posts in this thread can be summarized or paraphrased as:
Can I get a new appraisal because I am concerned that the value on the old appraisal is less than the purchase price? Yes, as long as the first lender did not log the appraisal (there will be no record of it) you can get a new appaiser assigned to the case.
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Hopland
2089 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 08:08:32 AM
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I'm not angry. A little disgusted, but not angry.
quote:
Yes, the lender is not required to use that particular appraisal. The Case# would be dropped from the current report through FHA connection, and would be assigned to the new report once you get the new Appraiser's information.
You did recover a bit after the OP posted the problem was with the MV opinion being lower than the contract price.
quote:
It stays in FHA connection if BOFA inputs the info. Meaning your new lender will see this, and good luck getting an UW to go with your increased value.
But this...
quote:
You are going to have to get a new, stonger appraisal than BOFA's in order to have any chance of disputing the lower value.
is not an acceptable rationale for trying to get an appraiser reassignment.
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MortgageBoarder
4016 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 08:24:19 AM
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There are cases where the AMC appraiser does not do his diligence and uses inferior comps, bracketing is outside of USPAP standards, properties are in different neighborhoods with a completely different market appeal, and all of these errors lead to a less than true market value.
The QC dept. at the AMC is not bright enough to catch this and I can not get anything through to hem since I am not their customer. New appraisal is ordered and done correctly and the two reports are night and day, one is compliant and one is not... How is my thinking not rational?? |
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Caterina
9 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 08:26:57 AM
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If the original appraiser missed market data and/or sales that were applicable and as a result, arrived at a lower opinion of value, then you need to submit that data to the appraiser for a reconsideration of value.
If the original appraisal was seriously flawed, there may be reasonable cause to order a new one altogether, but missing the sale price by $5,000 is not, in itself, reasonable cause.
What Hopland, TMD364 and myself often run into is illegal manipulation of the system and that's where the angst originates. Simply not logging the appraisal if the magic number isn't achieved and then lying to HUD about the appraiser not finishing the assignment so that the case number goes to a new, more 'optimistic' appraiser is just that.
If you got a truly shoddy appraisal (and believe me, we've all seen them), it is not HUD/FHA's intention that you are 'stuck' with that conclusion for 6 months. On the other hand, there may be a valid reason the contract price could not be supported. None of us can be judge and jury here, because we don't have the full set of data. |
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Hopland
2089 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 08:31:31 AM
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quote:
bracketing is outside of USPAP standards,
There are no bracketing requirementS in any of the USPAP standards.
Before responding to your question (which is a very good question) I'll wait and see if you have comments regarding Caterina's recent post. |
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MortgageBoarder
4016 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 09:03:19 AM
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I completely agree Caterina, and I figured this was Hopland's basis of attacking me. But I am not supporting or enticing any other circumstance other than a horribly done AMC report.
And as you stated above, getting the correct info to the original appraiser for corrections IS the right way to approach a shady report. And as I stated, companies like LandAm ONLY let the customer (original paying lender/broker) to communicate or discuss particulars on reports. Have you ever tried to get your competition to help you fix a report? Not so likely..
I agree that the 5k could not be due to a crappy report, generally, but none of us know that. I was simply making a point that I have been there, done that and WAS able to use the new reports. Then again I am very thorough and everything I presented was spot on!
And I don't have them in front of me, but I was shown the bracketing parameters by my UW out of her huge appraisal handbook. I don't recall but maybe its 'recommended' not required, but they were there. |
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Caterina
9 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 09:18:53 AM
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My experience with LandAm was underwhelming as well. I was getting stips from a customer service person who didn't know how to read an appraisal. I would respond that the information was already in the report, in plain sight no less. Then, several days later would come another clueless stip. I wasn't able to actually talk with the 'QC' person who was causing the problems. The client/end user was sitting there waiting for the report, and QC Clueless was holding up the process, but was shielded from having to speak with the appraiser.
LandAm is a mess on many levels from what I've seen. |
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Caterina
9 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 09:28:59 AM
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Almost forgot- Bracketing.
Bracketing is generally considered a good idea as it's pretty easy to make a smaller house 'look' more valuable if one uses all larger dwellings, for instance. Another example, say you have a swimming pool and you've estimated an adjustment to be $11,000. If I have all sales comparables without a pool, and an across the board adjustment, then I haven't really supported the value of the pool in my report.
While bracketing is a good practice, it may not be possible with all features. Every once in a while, you end up appraising the largest or smallest house in the neighborhood. Maybe you've got one of the 3 homes in the development without a fireplace and the other 2 haven't sold in the past 5 years. Bracketing is a GUIDELINE found in most lender underwriting handbooks. It is not a requirement, nor will such specifics of practice be found in USPAP. An appraiser who blatantly does not employ good methods and practices violates USPAP through ignoring the competency rule. This, however, leaves a lot of room for ambiguity. |
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MortgageBoarder
4016 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 09:44:32 AM
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Thank you for the informed responses Caterina and clarifying that bracketing is a Lender requirement and not USPAP.
Again, sorry if I was not 100% clear with my opinion, but I speak with conviction when stating you can TRY getting a new report if the previous one was a total trainwreck due to a unqualified/uneducated appraiser. |
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slants
4274 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 09:54:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by MortgageBoarder
Thank you for the informed responses Caterina and clarifying that bracketing is a Lender requirement and not USPAP.
Again, sorry if I was not 100% clear with my opinion, but I speak with conviction when stating you can TRY getting a new report if the previous one was a total trainwreck due to a unqualified/uneducated appraiser.
Good to know you have successfully gotten new and improved reports submitted. Thanks for sharing Justin. |
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Mikeinsantarosa
13 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2008 : 09:33:53 AM
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I am curious, Justin, what reasoning was offered to FHA in order to get a new assignment from them? The assignment letter not only has the case number but the appraiser's name, as well.
Please let us ALL know the best lie to tell. |
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Mikeinsantarosa
13 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2008 : 09:40:40 AM
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| There is a remedy for any FHA report that is thought to be deficient. It is called a Request for Reconsideration of Value. Whoever is objecting must provide data to support their contention that the report was deficient directly to the underwriter. If the underwriter agrees, then the Request is sent to the appraiser. The appraiser must analyze that data and either correct the report or reject that data with the reasons provided. If rejected by the appraiser, he is entitled to additional fees. If he concurs with the data there is no extra charge. |
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MortgageBoarder
4016 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2008 : 10:29:21 AM
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Read the above posts and put two and two together, Slants got it so hopefully you can too. I have my own DE in house underwriters, and LandAm would not cooperate so I got the benefit of the doubt. There is no lying about it, and I don't have time to entertain you and your assumptions.
quote:
Originally posted by Mikeinsantarosa
I am curious, Justin, what reasoning was offered to FHA in order to get a new assignment from them? The assignment letter not only has the case number but the appraiser's name, as well.
Please let us ALL know the best lie to tell.
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