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dkendall1979
8822 Posts |
 Posted - 05/15/2008 : 11:46:59 AM
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Why is every single Stated Loan request fraud?
I now know why these are soon going to become extinct, and completely agree with what's going on.
They're garbage!
- A butcher making $45,000 dollars a month?
- A person buying an O/O home to be "closer to work" but the broker didn't think to check and see that the subject property is 32 miles from his work. 32 miles happens to be the exact distance of his current primary home to his work.
- Here's a good one: UNABLE TO GRANT TERMS REQUESTED. PROGRAM 1700 ALT-A SISA DOES NOT ALLOW DTI TO EXCEED 50%, BORROWERS DTI IS AT 52.26%. TRUST ONE RECEIVED A LOAN ON 02/29/08 FOR THE SAME BORROWERS THEIR STATED INCOME ON THE PREVIOUS LOAN WAS USED, BROKER SUBMITTED THE NEW LOAN WITH HIGHER INCOME. BORROWERS HAVE 59 CREDIT INQUIRIES ON BACK UP CREDIT REPORT IN PAST 90 DAYS.
- Another winner: BORROWER OWNS 2 ADDITIONAL PROPERTIES NOT DISCLOSED ON 1003 LOCATED AT 8639 NORTH **** AVE & 2417 ****** CLUB CT #4.
- Classic here: PER THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION THE BORROWERS SOCIAL SECURITY DOES NOT BELONG TO HIM. THE BORROWER WAS BORN IN 1967 & THE SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER HE USING WAS ISSED IN 1936-1951. SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS ARE NOT ISSUED BEFORE YOUR DATE OF BIRTH
Stated loans are going where they belong, with the Yugo and T-Rex! |
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KHufford
5289 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 11:51:27 AM
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Lots of idiots out there wasting their time on this junk..
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AGreene00
2769 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 11:55:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dkendall1979
Stated loans are going where they belong, with the Yugo and T-Rex!
Don't forget the Dodo Bird and Pepsi Blue as well! |
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MBG
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 11:55:21 AM
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Those same lenders allowed this for at least the last five years......I agree with you, can't prove income, pretty hard to get a mortgage these days.
:) |
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ehm3
963 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 11:56:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by KHufford
Lots of idiots out there wasting their time on this junk..
unfortunately they are wasting Dave's time as well as the UW dept, which affects us all. Not to mention the obvious fraud and character issues that it proves about our industry.
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808
1963 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 11:56:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dkendall1979
Why is every single Stated Loan request fraud?
I now know why these are soon going to become extinct, and completely agree with what's going on.
They're garbage!
- A butcher making $45,000 dollars a month?
- A person buying an O/O home to be "closer to work" but the broker didn't think to check and see that the subject property is 32 miles from his work. 32 miles happens to be the exact distance of his current primary home to his work.
- Here's a good one: UNABLE TO GRANT TERMS REQUESTED. PROGRAM 1700 ALT-A SISA DOES NOT ALLOW DTI TO EXCEED 50%, BORROWERS DTI IS AT 52.26%. TRUST ONE RECEIVED A LOAN ON 02/29/08 FOR THE SAME BORROWERS THEIR STATED INCOME ON THE PREVIOUS LOAN WAS USED, BROKER SUBMITTED THE NEW LOAN WITH HIGHER INCOME. BORROWERS HAVE 59 CREDIT INQUIRIES ON BACK UP CREDIT REPORT IN PAST 90 DAYS.
- Another winner: BORROWER OWNS 2 ADDITIONAL PROPERTIES NOT DISCLOSED ON 1003 LOCATED AT 8639 NORTH **** AVE & 2417 ****** CLUB CT #4.
- Classic here: PER THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION THE BORROWERS SOCIAL SECURITY DOES NOT BELONG TO HIM. THE BORROWER WAS BORN IN 1967 & THE SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER HE USING WAS ISSED IN 1936-1951. SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS ARE NOT ISSUED BEFORE YOUR DATE OF BIRTH
Stated loans are going where they belong, with the Yugo and T-Rex!
hey drug dealers like to live in nice houses, what options are they gonna have now.
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dtabar
735 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 11:56:50 AM
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| sounds fun. Dude, that is a ballin' butcher! 45,000K a mo? that is $540,000 a year. That is a lot of cut cows. |
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mortgagemessiah
7907 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 11:57:13 AM
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| What's even worse are lazy or cowardly LOs and brokers who don't want to get financials from their client. |
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ehm3
963 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 11:58:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mortgagemessiah
What's even worse are lazy or cowardly LOs and brokers who don't want to get financials from their client.
well most of them wouldn't have a clue what to do with 'em anyway lol |
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Travis Du Bois
588 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 11:59:37 AM
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I agree with you 100% it's really sad however because there is a good use for them for the S/E borrowers who write off their income. The greedy tards ruin it for those who truly need a stated loan.
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Aloha
199 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:00:01 PM
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| I used to work for Lender..the "best" one: when a Broker submited full doc file and when i checked income via IRS it was under client’s friend's SS#!!!!!! Why I knew that it was under' friend's SS because the Broker GAVE SUCH EXPLANATION...i was speechless |
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dkendall1979
8822 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:00:24 PM
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That's just it!
I'd say 30% of the stated submissions could go full doc with a high DTI, but nobody ever thought to run it that way. Or, they are letting the borrower dictate the transaction and don't push him to send in financials.
GARBAGE! I might fund 10 stated loans this month and I've had 104 tuned down. I make no promises to brokers when they submit their stated files, but I agree with the bankers, do what's profitable. Stated loans have a 200% default rate over full doc. Go figure.
quote:
Originally posted by mortgagemessiah
What's even worse are lazy or cowardly LOs and brokers who don't want to get financials from their client.
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Boulderco
1085 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:00:30 PM
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| I think document waivers for high FICO, low risk customers are still desirable. There are people that have excellent scores and large down payments for whom dragging out 2 years of returns and 100 pages of statements is a pain in the @ss. Besides, the examples you gave didn't fly, although it would be preferable that brokers didn't clog the system with such garbage. It's a leftover of a mentality that is being forced to change. |
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dkendall1979
8822 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:05:48 PM
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If I come to you looking to borrow $100,000 to $1M+ dollars, would you want to see my tax returns?
quote:
Originally posted by Boulderco
I think document waivers for high FICO, low risk customers are still desirable. There are people that have excellent scores and large down payments for whom dragging out 2 years of returns and 100 pages of statements is a pain in the @ss. Besides, the examples you gave didn't fly, although it would be preferable that brokers didn't clog the system with such garbage. It's a leftover of a mentality that is being forced to change.
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ehm3
963 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:07:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dkendall1979
That's just it!
I'd say 30% of the stated submissions could go full doc with a high DTI, but nobody ever thought to run it that way. Or, they are letting the borrower dictate the transaction and don't push him to send in financials.
GARBAGE! I might fund 10 stated loans this month and I've had 104 tuned down. I make no promises to brokers when they submit their stated files, but I agree with the bankers, do what's profitable. Stated loans have a 200% default rate over full doc. Go figure.
quote:
Originally posted by mortgagemessiah
What's even worse are lazy or cowardly LOs and brokers who don't want to get financials from their client.
Amen Brother Dave. Preach on!
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808
1963 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:08:40 PM
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| say what you want but I'll guarantee you that EVERY LO or AE who posts on BO who's made money in Residential Conventional loans would've made a whole lot less in 2004-2007 if Stated Programs didn't exist. Everybody wants to jump on the politically correct bandwagon now. If stated programs suddenly made a big return 9/10 posts on BO would be Stated Income Scenarios. Please put the moral compasses away, |
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KHufford
5289 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:14:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mortgagemessiah
What's even worse are lazy or cowardly LOs and brokers who don't want to get financials from their client.
Yeah!
Broker: "Client can go full doc, but doesnt want to go through the hassle of getting his taxes to me"
Screw em!!
I want to go back to the 'Old Days' where the client gets his briefcase full of his personal documents and come down, sits in my lobby, and then meets over a desk and do it all by hand and pen and paper. No faxing, no emails, sit down, shut up and lets get you a loan.
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The Board of Dir
34 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:20:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Travis Du Bois
I agree with you 100% it's really sad however because there is a good use for them for the S/E borrowers who write off their income. The greedy tards ruin it for those who truly need a stated loan.
This is true. Had one recently declined, stated/verified, income deemed unreasonable, and after pulling the 4506T the lender thought they were correct.
Owner of custom home builder, 14 yrs, 2 million in already owned real estate across 5 properties, 750 credit, 100K in bank accounts, spotless credit history with lines of 10K, 15K, 25K, etc, not to mention multiple mortgages of 300K, 400K, 500K.
Borrower was furious, he was the ideal stated borrower. Loan now back to same lender, full doc, with all 75 pages of personal and company tax returns.
Have fun guys! |
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reverseguy
117 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:20:27 PM
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| What about the idiot lenders who use to send loans back and tell my lo's to up the income. All I'm saying is everyone is to blame but it will get cleaned up they are dropping like flys. |
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neversaynever
1022 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:24:14 PM
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| Geez DK, you sure do ***** a lot! |
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djorge44
1212 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:28:33 PM
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Travis Du Bois I have to mention one thing, if the self emplpyed borrowers actually paid their fair share then we would not have to worry about it.
I can't count how many times I have gotten tax returns for a customer who lives in a 500K house, drives a 80K truck, wife drives a 60K SUV, kids have cars and he claims a loss every year.
I am all for cutting taxes, but everyone has to pay their fair share.
I am pumped about the loss of stated.
File your taxes correctly or don't get a loan.
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dtabar
735 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:28:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 808
say what you want but I'll guarantee you that EVERY LO or AE who posts on BO who's made money in Residential Conventional loans would've made a whole lot less in 2004-2007 if Stated Programs didn't exist. Everybody wants to jump on the politically correct bandwagon now. If stated programs suddenly made a big return 9/10 posts on BO would be Stated Income Scenarios. Please put the moral compasses away,
amen. |
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MBG
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:29:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 808
say what you want but I'll guarantee you that EVERY LO or AE who posts on BO who's made money in Residential Conventional loans would've made a whole lot less in 2004-2007 if Stated Programs didn't exist. Everybody wants to jump on the politically correct bandwagon now. If stated programs suddenly made a big return 9/10 posts on BO would be Stated Income Scenarios. Please put the moral compasses away,
I have only had one who wouldn't provide tax returns - big developer in TN; so we stated his income (which I had him confirm to me in writing - cover myself you know), got his loans approved. Then, a couple of mos. later I get a vm from him, "...I need you to call me. My wife and her attorney got a hold of the application for the loan and they want to know why and how I make so much money....."
So, I dig out my files and I am ticked that due to his domestic situation I now have extra work to do........but, as it turns out, he had applied with another broker and really inflated the income....again, I had him confirm my figures in writing. I emailed him so he would have my response in writing and told him my discovery and invited him and his wife's atty to contact the other broker......never heard from again. And, I wonder what happened to that broker? Too damned funny............
I can say those self employed persons I did write stated loans, truly did earn the income I stated.....
Even had one approved super jumbo. About 18 mos. later, they had met another broker which gave them big promises, they bought an investment property last Oct. (think of this timing), and that broker submitted the purchase loan to the same lender I did their primary residence with........yep, it got declined! They came back to me....I looked at the loan and told them to let the other broker keep it......I knew placing it would be difficult and it only took about 90 days to close. Whew! |
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EMScommercial
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:30:44 PM
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Amen david and steve.....
Even after you inform them that stated is not stated as they think of it....
They are all BS! |
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dkendall1979
8822 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:31:57 PM
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Hey if they're approvable, let's get them done. I've taken in over 100 this month, I'm not on some moral high ground. I'm just wondering why every single one of them is laten with fraud?
quote:
Originally posted by 808
say what you want but I'll guarantee you that EVERY LO or AE who posts on BO who's made money in Residential Conventional loans would've made a whole lot less in 2004-2007 if Stated Programs didn't exist. Everybody wants to jump on the politically correct bandwagon now. If stated programs suddenly made a big return 9/10 posts on BO would be Stated Income Scenarios. Please put the moral compasses away,
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beauphus
121 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:46:11 PM
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| i actually know a butcher that makes more than that. he had the best steaks on the planet before he sold his butcher shop. definately made a fortune down here... |
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dkendall1979
8822 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:54:22 PM
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Well, I bet your butcher could at least verify assets, no?
quote:
Originally posted by beauphus
i actually know a butcher that makes more than that. he had the best steaks on the planet before he sold his butcher shop. definately made a fortune down here...
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djorge44
1212 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:55:33 PM
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Dave, are you saying someone who make 55K a month should have assetts?
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RANDY P
2407 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:57:27 PM
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Dave-
do you have SISA? :) |
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dkendall1979
8822 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 12:58:14 PM
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Like a chicken should have feathers. Without em, they just don't look right.
quote:
Originally posted by djorge44
Dave, are you saying someone who make 55K a month should have assetts?
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808
1963 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 1:18:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dkendall1979
Hey if they're approvable, let's get them done. I've taken in over 100 this month, I'm not on some moral high ground. I'm just wondering why every single one of them is laten with fraud?
quote:
Originally posted by 808
say what you want but I'll guarantee you that EVERY LO or AE who posts on BO who's made money in Residential Conventional loans would've made a whole lot less in 2004-2007 if Stated Programs didn't exist. Everybody wants to jump on the politically correct bandwagon now. If stated programs suddenly made a big return 9/10 posts on BO would be Stated Income Scenarios. Please put the moral compasses away,
because desperate people do desperate things. If you were sitting on an Option ARM in Central Florida, or Clark County NV or Riverside, San Bernadino County CA that was getting ready to recast in 2009 and stated income was the way you got in and the only way you can refi out, chances are the application is gonna be a bit embellished.
Foreclosures or the threat of it will freak people out. Also CA like FL is a Stated Income State, thats how the Median Home price got up to $450k while the Median Income is $45k in Los Angeles. Do you think FHA or Barney Frank is gonna solve that problem??? That's some serious buyer disconnect numbers and I don't see a lot of Full Doc loans coming out of those numbers
Doesn't matter, someone w money and a brain will realize that there is a solid market for SIVA/SISA, 75%LTV, 700+FICO, O/O borrowers and will put a program together w some investors that will make them all a mint. That's what's great about this country, you can make a fortune off of other peoples/companies/industry's anxiety attacks and oversights. |
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jhaaland
79 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 1:27:19 PM
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| i feel your pain dkendall, it is crap that you have to deal with that type is garbage |
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Travis Du Bois
588 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 2:05:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 808
Doesn't matter, someone w money and a brain will realize that there is a solid market for SIVA/SISA, 75%LTV, 700+FICO, O/O borrowers and will put a program together w some investors that will make them all a mint. That's what's great about this country, you can make a fortune off of other peoples/companies/industry's anxiety attacks and oversights.
We have just that product!
http://www.brokeroutpost.com/loans/brokers/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=218944 |
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kalee3415
190 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 2:10:26 PM
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Don't throw us all in one basket.
I have never done a stated income, except in the case of an income waiver. However, with those I already have their correct income and run it that way to get the waiver in the first place so it is a moot point.
I am not the only one. In the company I work for we were NOT allowed to do stated unless it was through a waiver. We could do no ratios/no doc, with permission, as long as we knew it was affordable and there was a reason such as S/E, secondary income, etc. Still I would say between approximately 10 LO's we did less than 5 no ratios/no docs a year. The owner felt their was too much liability in stated because it is too easy for the LO to lie. He was not thrilled about no ratios or no docs but there was no liability of a false stated income on those. Sure we probably left a lot of money on the table, but we all did just fine and did not help create the problem we are seeing today. I am sure there are plenty others in the business who either didn't use them or at least used them more responsibly.
quote:
Originally posted by 808
say what you want but I'll guarantee you that EVERY LO or AE who posts on BO who's made money in Residential Conventional loans would've made a whole lot less in 2004-2007 if Stated Programs didn't exist. Everybody wants to jump on the politically correct bandwagon now. If stated programs suddenly made a big return 9/10 posts on BO would be Stated Income Scenarios. Please put the moral compasses away,
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Captain Mortgage
1429 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 2:19:33 PM
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| haha, I just pulled a credit report with this message. "Social Security numbers do not begin with a 9" |
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pbrymer
77 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 2:20:35 PM
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| i would love to see the numbers on defaults for bkstmts, reference letters, and a ****ty fico deals vs. sisa product with a high fico deals/neg am type deals.... wonder which one is better... any thoughts? |
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hpmfinancial
1449 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 3:17:11 PM
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| It is a shame that the real borrowers who need stated can not get it due to all the crap that was pulled in the past. STATED INCOME IS NOT DESIGNED AS A WAY TO LIE ABOUT INCOME, IT IS A MEANS TO INPUT AN INCOME THAT THE BORROWER REALLY MAKES, BUT IS UNABLE TO DOCUMENT IT. |
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ComLender
1253 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 3:17:31 PM
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| Maybe "Butcher" is code for hitman. I have to agree with the analysis of stated thus far. I can't tell you how fun it is to look at taxes for an approved loan, with $330K net income and pulling a 4506-T that shows $3K net income. There are borrowers with extenuating circumstances, but if you lie to the government, why should a lender believe you're not lying to them? |
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KHufford
5289 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 3:19:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hpmfinancial
It is a shame that the real borrowers who need stated can not get it due to all the crap that was pulled in the past. STATED INCOME IS NOT DESIGNED AS A WAY TO LIE ABOUT INCOME, IT IS A MEANS TO INPUT AN INCOME THAT THE BORROWER REALLY MAKES, BUT IS UNABLE TO DOCUMENT IT.
Cant document = go rent!
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williamspeaking
4049 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 3:30:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hpmfinancial
It is a shame that the real borrowers who need stated can not get it due to all the crap that was pulled in the past. STATED INCOME IS NOT DESIGNED AS A WAY TO LIE ABOUT INCOME, IT IS A MEANS TO INPUT AN INCOME THAT THE BORROWER REALLY MAKES, BUT IS UNABLE TO DOCUMENT IT.
Lying to the bank, lying to the government, either way you're defrauding someone. |
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williamspeaking
4049 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 11:09:06 AM
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I just got a good one.
sisa with a 690 fico
the broker emailed an explanation of why 6k per month was reasonable for::
Landscaper
Told him, that sisa landscaper was kind of sketchy, and i was asked why?
most overused title in fraud loans, decent credit, no assets???? Am I way off here? |
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GBecerra
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 11:38:19 AM
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There are still a handfull of banks out there that will do a loan with a DTI as high 64.99% on the backend. Some banks are now taking only 5% Down Payment on traditional Full Doc even in declining markets! Now if you can't get a Full Doc loan in with that kind of DTI, with the current home prices and the rates we have now then you need to find another job.....
Damn, it was 99 degrees in Oakland yesturday and well on its way there again today...
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DaveDeal
66 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 1:40:38 PM
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I've got no problem with stated if they are within reason. My nephew bartends at a nice restaurant on Friday and Saturday nights. It adds $600 CASH each week to his carpenter salary.
Every case is different and you should be able to spot the liars....then walk away. |
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EMScommercial
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 1:47:23 PM
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just for you david....
http://www.brokeroutpost.com/loans/brokers/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=222303 |
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ZoolanderMSM
188 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 1:58:28 PM
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There are a lot of things you can do to deal with the "fraud" issue.
1. Turn them down. You have to close loans to make money. LO's that don't make money, don't stay in business.
2. Cut them off. If they lose the ability to lend, they don't stay in business.
3. File complaints. If they lose their license, they don't stay in business.
4. Audit files. If lenders buy back too many loans, they close their doors.
I don't believe the government or Fannie Mae is going to develop a fix that's easier than the things I've listed. There's no miracle cure. fraud will always be a challenge in our industry.
Also, be aware of your market. If you only want easy loans, you better have excellent pricing and great turn times. Because there are a lot of competitive lenders looking for this type of business now.
If you're priced less aggressively, you're going to get loans that need to be manually underwritten. These are going to have weird things going on and an added degree of difficulty.
Thanks,
Matt |
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clos25
413 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 2:05:56 PM
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A lot of LO's out there still believe that Self Employed means Stated. it pisses me off how they do not know how to read tax returns.
definition of Full DOC:
ACCEPTABLE DOCUMENTATION TO THE LENDER THAT PUTS THE BORROWER AT AN ACCEPTABLE DEBT RATIO TO THE INVESTOR. |
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mojojojo_1
674 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 2:14:20 PM
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64.99% is insane too. after taxes you keep ten percent of your income?
for an average 44k income, that mean 366 dollars a months to live off of, or 733 for dual income families. WTF? thats gas. note rising credit card defaults....
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EMScommercial
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 2:34:21 PM
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my dad used to say....
'it's better to be pissed off than to be pissed on'
deep thoughts! |
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