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lemeuss
614 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2008 : 1:16:51 PM
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Ok, I'm a broker doing a lot of business in Pennsylvania...anyone living here knows there's a HUGE difference between Southeast PA (Philly area) and Western PA farmland (picture a change from New York city to Nebraska farmland)-- it's a whole different world...about 3 months back I had a borrower tell me her home was worth about $170K, had the loan structured as a $115K cash out, conditional approval back, just waiting on appraisal...appraiser took the $300, wrote up the appraisal, and came back with a $60K value on the home w/comps no higher than $68K.
Since then, I've asked all appraisers to just give me a call in advance if they think there will be any huge issue w/my borrowers estimated value, as I don't want to waste my time, the appraisers time, or my clients or potential clients money...
Today I was told this was an unreasonable request, as there was pressure from me to hit a certain value...all I really wanted to know was that if I were shooting for $50,000 and it were to OBVIOUSLY not even come close to that just by sight or prior research, could my borrower just be charged a trip fee, and them not write up the whole appraisal.
To me, this seems crazy...I would never pressure an appraiser to hit value, and I've had a ton of appraisals come in short from my favorite appraiser I refer all my business to, so I'm slightly frustrated and dumbfounded by this...
My comparison would be a mortgage company having an application fee, and a borrower calling and saying they need a 100% loan, can't prove income, and are 3 months out of bankruptcy with a 350 FICO score, and me taking the application fee to see if there's anything I can do...
anyone think I'm completely off in space here with my thoughts? Seems a little ridiculous.
I was told today this is an unreasonable request |
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lunarhamster
4437 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 1:21:16 PM
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Well, depending on who you ask!! I had another LO in here tell me that all good loan officers do and always have ordered appraisals blindly.
Although, after 10 years in this biz, I've never met one of "those" type of loan officers.
It's not unreasonable at all, but you and I will be attacked for saying so. Ask me if I give a shi*! |
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lukyk22
1700 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 1:22:25 PM
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| i dont think its unreasonable at all, and I dont agree with appraisers that get bent over it.... but my .02 means nothing... unfortunately. |
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Chris Clark
5966 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 1:23:39 PM
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| I "understand" why you feel this way and it makes perfect sense to me, however you have to realize that what you're asking for is "illegal" for an appraiser to do as USPAP says that they cannot accept an appraisal order based on a pre-determined value (and when they tell you that a value "could" be reached, that means it's pre-determined). However, what is not illegal is for them to do is provide you a list of recent sales in the area for you to do your own comp check. That's how you need to approach it... |
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lukyk22
1700 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 1:24:23 PM
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| some loan officers totally abusd their positions with Values especially in CA, and yes they would threaten to not use appraisers if they didnt hit value. But asking for a heads up from someone is not unreasonable.. |
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jaronparkin
330 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 1:27:44 PM
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| I agree. It's not unreasonable to ask them to tell you. Would you buy anything without have some sort of idea of what you are going to receive? You just have to shop around for an honest person. |
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chasjh46
210 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 1:29:39 PM
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| This is why I joined the MLS..to run my own comps before ordering an appraisal. |
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clarenceworley
4360 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 1:30:19 PM
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| PA has the largest rural population of any state. |
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Xpatriot
333 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 1:30:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lukyk22
some loan officers totally abusd their positions with Values especially in CA, and yes they would threaten to not use appraisers if they didnt hit value. But asking for a heads up from someone is not unreasonable..
its these very same appraisers who cry and scream about brokers preasuring them to make values that are going to find themselves out of business when lenders start ordering their own appraisers and only use those on an approved list.
op i would suggest instead of that approach just ask the appraiser for a list of properties in the subject property that have just recently sold or are listed. do your own homework to see if you will have an issue. that and just try to stick with a few appraiser that you can trust. |
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williamspeaking
4058 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 1:50:42 PM
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| god why would you even post this? its going to turn into another 400 page rant between appraisers and los |
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mganovsky
2114 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 2:32:53 PM
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I agree that appraisors should give you heads up, I have used the same 3 appraisors for years and all of them will call me if there is an issue, and ask me if I want to go forward, if I say no then they never expect to get paid, and I do not send them the check, and I have never pressured them to come to a certain value. I believe it is what it is and trust there opinion of value. And I would never use another appraisor just because a value is not reached.
Now on the other hand there are web sites that you can sign up with that will give you a value. Or First American Title on there web site allows you to run an AVM, all you have to do is sign up with them..
We are in a declining area so value's are tough, on refi's and Purchases I run an AVM, also I look in the county tax records to see when they bought and what they paid to give me an idea if we are in the ball park or not.
If close I will send a request to my appraisors, and see what the actual opinion of value is.
Hopeland will come on here soon and slam all of us, but I do not care he and every appraisor that refuses to work with us a little can kiss my butt. We are not trying to put pressure on the appraisor but looking out for our clients so they don't have to waste thier hard earned money and my time and energy. If the value is not there it is not there period, and we move on to the next one. |
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msancheznj
2243 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 3:10:07 PM
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| How about using sitexdata.com? |
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MARKJOLLIFF
397 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 3:16:54 PM
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| It seems real simple and a common sense and common courtesy thing to do. For those who follow the rules diligently or are afraid of a slippery slope will not accept orders under those conditions. Now keep in mind that I fully realize your intentions are good and you are not trying to do ANYTHING scummy. So o.k now I'm about to tell you why it's not allowed. Here goes. You are offering two amounts of compensation for different levels of value.Trip fee for under x or full fee for over x. It really is that simple. At the risk of Lunar Hamsters rath I will say the dreaded word. USPAP. I know it seems crazy from your point of view but if you think it through you will see why it can't be allowed. The rule is in place to prevent appraisers from saying " What the heck it's only 10k more" or similar temptations. The truth is in todays society when it comes to money if you give people an inch..... The rules covering this scenario are designed to eliminate any temptation to inflate "just a little" to earn full fee. I have made calls in the past when i appraised but I do respect anyone who follows their convictions especially if it means they will sacrifice business. |
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CoralSnake
11206 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 3:28:29 PM
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I have never found an appraiser in PA to even hint to the value or even ballpark of value without completing an entire report.
Only in PA. |
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fund-n
320 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 3:37:49 PM
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| why push the value. underwriters will most likely catch a pushed value and then you have done a lot of work for nothing. give me the real value and move on.I don't see the big deal of a comp search. isn't it like sitex, realquest,zillow... |
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MARKJOLLIFF
397 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 3:47:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by fund-n
why push the value. underwriters will most likely catch a pushed value and then you have done a lot of work for nothing. give me the real value and move on.I don't see the big deal of a comp search. isn't it like sitex, realquest,zillow...
I don't think we're talking about comp checks. The Op is asking why an appraiser would complete an appraisal if value isn't there or why appraisers don't agree to accept orders with the agreement that only a trip fee will be charged if value isn't there. |
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SoCalAppraiser
24 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 3:51:15 PM
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| No catfight here, just trying to give you another view. If the owner though the value was 170K have them give you some proof of where they are getting this value. I have had homeowners give me a list of sales in the area, and I do not have a problem with that. If they are comparable (size, time, location, etc.) the appraiser should also have these. There have been many comments above on how to get comps. Just a little research will let you know if you are even close in range. In this case if there are sales in the 60K range, you should have questioned the borrower thinking their home was worth almost three times more. |
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fund-n
320 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 3:54:57 PM
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| I can only speak for my company, work with appraisers you have an honest relationship with, when possible. but as far as why would an appraiser do that... beats me. I thought the analogy about getting an application fee on a loan you KNOW you can't do was dead on. |
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lemeuss
614 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 4:04:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by MARKJOLLIFF
quote:
Originally posted by fund-n
why push the value. underwriters will most likely catch a pushed value and then you have done a lot of work for nothing. give me the real value and move on.I don't see the big deal of a comp search. isn't it like sitex, realquest,zillow...
I don't think we're talking about comp checks. The Op is asking why an appraiser would complete an appraisal if value isn't there or why appraisers don't agree to accept orders with the agreement that only a trip fee will be charged if value isn't there.
EXACTLY...and not even so much a trip fee if the value isn't there...I'm talking trip fee when the value is nowhere close and doesn't even have a chance before the appraiser walks through the door....if it's close, I'm all for a legit appraisal and hoping for the best, but if it's not close, I feel consumers are due the professional respect of not having their $300 taken for something they'll never use...yet a trip fee seems reasonable to compensate a professional for taking their time to come out. |
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lemeuss
614 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 4:07:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SoCalAppraiser
No catfight here, just trying to give you another view. If the owner though the value was 170K have them give you some proof of where they are getting this value. I have had homeowners give me a list of sales in the area, and I do not have a problem with that. If they are comparable (size, time, location, etc.) the appraiser should also have these. There have been many comments above on how to get comps. Just a little research will let you know if you are even close in range. In this case if there are sales in the 60K range, you should have questioned the borrower thinking their home was worth almost three times more.
perfectly understandable...I normally check sites like zillow for a guestimate...however, this is in a very rural area, with wide ranges and home sizes, upgrades, etc....there was no zillow finding for this property...I normally do everything I can to help out...I've also found that if you ask for comparable sales from a borrower, they ALWAYS have the NICEST house on the block with upgrades out the arse, which they've been told by everyone sets them apart at a higher value. |
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fund-n
320 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 4:08:32 PM
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| So whats gonna happen when this new ordering appraisal law goes into effect? what if the lender orders the appraisal and for some reason I no longer want to go with that lender? can that appraisal be transferred to a new lender or does the borrower have to pay for a totally new appraisal? |
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terrapin52
63 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 4:57:25 PM
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| Why did you post this???? Just read the previous catfight. There are 35 pages of the same comments... jeez!!! Some of them almost verbatim. |
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lunarhamster
4437 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 4:58:21 PM
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Didn't you hear? Hopland got a new job at the mall.
I saw him the other day, we had a cinnabon together.
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financeone
1727 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 5:39:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lunarhamster
Didn't you hear? Hopland got a new job at the mall.
I saw him the other day, we had a cinnabon together.
Then he did a comp check for ya didn't he? |
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terry_g
396 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 6:24:13 PM
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No, but he was sure checking her buns
quote:
Originally posted by financeone
quote:
Originally posted by lunarhamster
Didn't you hear? Hopland got a new job at the mall.
I saw him the other day, we had a cinnabon together.
Then he did a comp check for ya didn't he?
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MARKJOLLIFF
397 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 6:24:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by fund-n
I can only speak for my company, work with appraisers you have an honest relationship with, when possible. but as far as why would an appraiser do that... beats me. I thought the analogy about getting an application fee on a loan you KNOW you can't do was dead on.
It's dead on from a practical point of view from the average person.It is a violation of USPAP to accept an order contingent on value. Whether it's a specific value or anything above X doesn't matter.We can argue if it's fair or stupid or anything you want but I'm just explaining why some appraisers don't agree to the trip charge deal. There are no rules against accepting an app fee from someone with obviusly poor credit or is there? I'm not familiar with rules you all have to follow. If there isn't a violation in the application scenario depicted above then the analogy doesn't work.Ones a violation and the other is just a lousy thing to do to someone in many peoples opinion. |
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lunarhamster
4437 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 6:37:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by financeone
quote:
Originally posted by lunarhamster
Didn't you hear? Hopland got a new job at the mall.
I saw him the other day, we had a cinnabon together.
Then he did a comp check for ya didn't he?
He totally did, and he liked it too. |
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KHufford
6502 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 7:52:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lemeuss
Ok, I'm a broker doing a lot of business in Pennsylvania...anyone living here knows there's a HUGE difference between Southeast PA (Philly area) and Western PA farmland (picture a change from New York city to Nebraska farmland)-- it's a whole different world...about 3 months back I had a borrower tell me her home was worth about $170K, had the loan structured as a $115K cash out, conditional approval back, just waiting on appraisal...appraiser took the $300, wrote up the appraisal, and came back with a $60K value on the home w/comps no higher than $68K.
Since then, I've asked all appraisers to just give me a call in advance if they think there will be any huge issue w/my borrowers estimated value, as I don't want to waste my time, the appraisers time, or my clients or potential clients money...
Today I was told this was an unreasonable request, as there was pressure from me to hit a certain value...all I really wanted to know was that if I were shooting for $50,000 and it were to OBVIOUSLY not even come close to that just by sight or prior research, could my borrower just be charged a trip fee, and them not write up the whole appraisal.
To me, this seems crazy...I would never pressure an appraiser to hit value, and I've had a ton of appraisals come in short from my favorite appraiser I refer all my business to, so I'm slightly frustrated and dumbfounded by this...
My comparison would be a mortgage company having an application fee, and a borrower calling and saying they need a 100% loan, can't prove income, and are 3 months out of bankruptcy with a 350 FICO score, and me taking the application fee to see if there's anything I can do...
anyone think I'm completely off in space here with my thoughts? Seems a little ridiculous.
I was told today this is an unreasonable request
I agree 100% with your analogy, you are doing the right thing, keep it up. Just try to develope better relations with your appraisers in the area so its more of a working partnership and give and take.
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CoolMtgGuy
4101 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 8:03:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lemeuss
Ok, I'm a broker doing a lot of business in Pennsylvania...anyone living here knows there's a HUGE difference between Southeast PA (Philly area) and Western PA farmland (picture a change from New York city to Nebraska farmland)-- it's a whole different world...about 3 months back I had a borrower tell me her home was worth about $170K, had the loan structured as a $115K cash out, conditional approval back, just waiting on appraisal...appraiser took the $300, wrote up the appraisal, and came back with a $60K value on the home w/comps no higher than $68K.
Since then, I've asked all appraisers to just give me a call in advance if they think there will be any huge issue w/my borrowers estimated value, as I don't want to waste my time, the appraisers time, or my clients or potential clients money...
Today I was told this was an unreasonable request, as there was pressure from me to hit a certain value...all I really wanted to know was that if I were shooting for $50,000 and it were to OBVIOUSLY not even come close to that just by sight or prior research, could my borrower just be charged a trip fee, and them not write up the whole appraisal.
To me, this seems crazy...I would never pressure an appraiser to hit value, and I've had a ton of appraisals come in short from my favorite appraiser I refer all my business to, so I'm slightly frustrated and dumbfounded by this...
My comparison would be a mortgage company having an application fee, and a borrower calling and saying they need a 100% loan, can't prove income, and are 3 months out of bankruptcy with a 350 FICO score, and me taking the application fee to see if there's anything I can do...
anyone think I'm completely off in space here with my thoughts? Seems a little ridiculous.
I was told today this is an unreasonable request
Your requests to the appraiser is totally wrong and unreasonable.
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KHufford
6502 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 8:16:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CoolMtgGuy
quote:
Originally posted by lemeuss
Ok, I'm a broker doing a lot of business in Pennsylvania...anyone living here knows there's a HUGE difference between Southeast PA (Philly area) and Western PA farmland (picture a change from New York city to Nebraska farmland)-- it's a whole different world...about 3 months back I had a borrower tell me her home was worth about $170K, had the loan structured as a $115K cash out, conditional approval back, just waiting on appraisal...appraiser took the $300, wrote up the appraisal, and came back with a $60K value on the home w/comps no higher than $68K.
Since then, I've asked all appraisers to just give me a call in advance if they think there will be any huge issue w/my borrowers estimated value, as I don't want to waste my time, the appraisers time, or my clients or potential clients money...
Today I was told this was an unreasonable request, as there was pressure from me to hit a certain value...all I really wanted to know was that if I were shooting for $50,000 and it were to OBVIOUSLY not even come close to that just by sight or prior research, could my borrower just be charged a trip fee, and them not write up the whole appraisal.
To me, this seems crazy...I would never pressure an appraiser to hit value, and I've had a ton of appraisals come in short from my favorite appraiser I refer all my business to, so I'm slightly frustrated and dumbfounded by this...
My comparison would be a mortgage company having an application fee, and a borrower calling and saying they need a 100% loan, can't prove income, and are 3 months out of bankruptcy with a 350 FICO score, and me taking the application fee to see if there's anything I can do...
anyone think I'm completely off in space here with my thoughts? Seems a little ridiculous.
I was told today this is an unreasonable request
Your requests to the appraiser is totally wrong and unreasonable.
Sarcasm I hope?
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gdavenpo
363 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 8:44:14 PM
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quote:
Ok, I'm a broker doing a lot of business in Pennsylvania...anyone living here knows there's a HUGE difference between Southeast PA (Philly area) and Western PA farmland (picture a change from New York city to Nebraska farmland)-- it's a whole different world...about 3 months back I had a borrower tell me her home was worth about $170K, had the loan structured as a $115K cash out, conditional approval back, just waiting on appraisal...appraiser took the $300, wrote up the appraisal, and came back with a $60K value on the home w/comps no higher than $68K.
Ok so what the point? He did his job, you did yours, and the Home owner knows the truth about what her property is worth.
Since you seem to know so much, why did the value surprise you?
quote:
Since then, I've asked all appraisers to just give me a call in advance if they think there will be any huge issue w/my borrowers estimated value, as I don't want to waste my time, the appraisers time, or my clients or potential clients money...
This has been beaten to death, but since you don’t seem to want to understand the rule we have to follow, I’ll point them out again.
Some callers indicate that if the numbers will not work, the appraiser can send a bill for research services or a “preliminary” inspection. Other callers promise future assignments if the appraiser can make the present deal work.
Appraisers ask, “Can I respond to such requests without violating USPAP and, if so, how?”
The Conduct and Management sections of the ETHICS RULE, particularly in regard to assignments offered under condition of “predetermined opinions or conclusions” or compensation conditioned on the reporting of a predetermined value result, a direction in assignment results that favors the cause of the client, the amount of a value opinion, the attainment of a stipulated result, or the occurrence of a subsequent event directly related to the appraiser’s opinions and specific to the assignment’s purpose.
An appraiser must perform assignments with impartiality, objectivity, and independence, and without accommodation of personal interests.
An appraiser must not accept an assignment that includes the reporting of predetermined opinions and conclusions.
An appraiser must not communicate assignment results in a misleading or fraudulent manner. An appraiser must not use or communicate a misleading or fraudulent report or knowingly permit an employee or other person to communicate a misleading or fraudulent report.
Did you follow all of that? USPAP is a pain in the *** to follow and understand. But the above are from
http://commerce.appraisalfoundation.org/html/USPAP2008/AOs/ao_19_.htm
quote:
Today I was told this was an unreasonable request, as there was pressure from me to hit a certain value...all I really wanted to know was that if I were shooting for $50,000 and it were to OBVIOUSLY not even come close to that just by sight or prior research, could my borrower just be charged a trip fee, and them not write up the whole appraisal.
Just how are you expecting us to know what the propery is worth without seeing it?Our job is to tell the lenders what the property is worth. If I understand your job is to find a mortgage that will work for the home owner.
quote:
My comparison would be a mortgage company having an application fee, and a borrower calling and saying they need a 100% loan, can't prove income, and are 3 months out of bankruptcy with a 350 FICO score, and me taking the application fee to see if there's anything I can do...
Do you have rules that say you cannot take the application? If not, why even bother trying to compare the two?
quote:
anyone think I'm completely off in space here with my thoughts? Seems a little ridiculous.
I was told today this is an unreasonable request
Yea, I do. We did not make the rules, we just stand the change of losing our licenses if out boards thinks we broke them.
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assassin17
4239 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 9:03:53 PM
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| Tax Assessor? |
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Tsnyder
8308 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 9:40:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lunarhamster
Well, depending on who you ask!! I had another LO in here tell me that all good loan officers do and always have ordered appraisals blindly.
Although, after 10 years in this biz, I've never met one of "those" type of loan officers.
I was the guy who said that to you... but I didn't say
all good loan officers... I said all smart loan officers.
I've met plenty of them...I am one of them.
I'd be happy to elaborate on the subject of why it's
smart for the LO to stay completely away from the subject
but I've already written it several times in this forum.
Tsnyder |
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