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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:31:17 PM
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So WAMU lets me know they wont subordinate over 80%LTV or some ungodly low number, and I'm sitting there wondering how can this day get worse.... Ding, i get mail and from a lawyer respresting some appraiser that didn't get paid.
Story,
Got a guy out in a nice area, but not populated. Guy built 600k house and is retiring, and he says lets use the lady that appraised me for my construction loan. Okay I call her get her fax and send an order out of Calyx point. She calls and says, I always collect at the door and that is what i want to do here because i don't want to worry about not getting paid. I said great do whatever you want, If you do bill us you get paid when we close.
Citimortgage is the lender, they get the appraisal, with comps 10 - 30 miles away (not neccessarily a killer not what i like though) and she comares it to all homes with electricity while ours is Solar. Citi calls and says secondary market wont go for it, your loan is dead, dont bother getting another appraisal, we kill loans not close loans. (okay i made that last part up).
I tell the appraiser, who DID NOT collect at door but billed me b/c the borrower asked her to. Now i get this damn collections letter and she is being unreasonable, i even offered $250 to split the difference.
Do i have a leg to stand on? The order did not say bill my company, and I hate this lady now and want to see her not get one red penny. |
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Chris Clark
5959 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:35:26 PM
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| unfortunately, no, you do not have a leg to stand on. you ordered the appraisal, and you are responsible for paying for it, even if you did not close the loan. |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:37:39 PM
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I hope you end up having to pay the full fee plus court costs, interest and any other thing she can think up. You ordered an appraisal and you got an appraisal. You just lacked the contacts to place the loan.
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:38:32 PM
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hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
No, theres got to be something i can do. Can I file a complaint with the appraiser board? I'm not kidding she told me she was collecting at the door, aye aye aye, why me? |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:40:12 PM
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| You're the client so you're responsible. If you didn't have the skills and wherewithall to deal with a complicated property you should have turned the deal over the a broker who could instead of causing problems for the borrower and now the appraiser. |
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:40:33 PM
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| Appraisers can lie like dirty LO's and you think they should still be compensated, great now i know how you operate. |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:41:15 PM
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| What was the lie? |
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Chris Clark
5959 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:41:31 PM
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| actually, the only thing i can think of is that you could have the appraisal reviewed by other appraisers and possibly prove that she was negligent in performing her duties. but that'll probably cost you more than just paying the bill. you should have nipped this one in the bud long before it got to the point of lawsuit. |
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:41:54 PM
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| And Satan, actually the borrower had a backup plan and when I told him Citi turned down the crappy appraisal, he said ok I'm going with plan B. So he did his own thing, I had no control over it after th CRAPPY APPRAISAL was turned down. |
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ss5547
249 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:42:19 PM
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I always have my borrowers sign the Right to Recieve Appraisal form. It states clearly that, no matter the outcome of the loan, they will pay for the appraisal. Never had to go to small claims court, but I like to think that it's better to have that form than not.
In your case, just tell her that you have a 780 credit score and a $500 collection isn't going to do anything to you. You offered to settle the debt and she declined, so now she won't get a penny from you. If it goes to small claims, she won't be able to provide an invoice authorization signed by you (hopefully) and you will win the case. She knows that, so she did the smart thing by selling it to a factoring or collection company. |
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:46:57 PM
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can I counter claim for negligent work, and bring the letter from Citi tearing up the appraisal?
And the lie was,
1. YES I WILL COLLECT FORM THE BORROWER and
2. YES I WILL DO MY JOB |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:50:59 PM
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Sure, if there was negligence. How do you plan on proving that? Comp 10 to 30 miles away and with an alternative power system versus public electrical power. Sounds like a unique property in a difficult market area. And you or the borrower thinks solar power versus public power makes the property more valuable? I doubt it. Being off the public power grid is not everyone's cup of tea.
Again I ask: What lies were you told? |
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:52:40 PM
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| and no I think Solar power *****, I know it makes the home less valuable, and so does the appraiser but she didn't show it on the appraisal |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:53:47 PM
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1. YES I WILL COLLECT FORM THE BORROWER and
but I thought you said:
quote:
I said great do whatever you want,
2. YES I WILL DO MY JOB
I thought you said:
quote:
Citimortgage is the lender, they get the appraisal
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:56:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by neversaynever
and no I think Solar power *****, I know it makes the home less valuable, and so does the appraiser but she didn't show it on the appraisal
I didn't say solar power made homes less valueable. I questioned whether it made homes more valuable. It's becoming more of a viable option, especially for properties out in the boondocks where bringing power in costs $40k to $50k per mile versus a state of the art alternative power system costing less than $50k or so. In my market, it's a wash. |
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 9:58:11 PM
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PRAISE THE LORD, THANK YOU BANKER, I AM NOT ALONE
and FINISH THAT QUOTE HOPLAND, I SAID
" If you do bill us you get paid when we close. "
(A RATIONAL PERSON TAKE STHIS AS I AM NOT PAYING YOU UNLESS IT CLOSES IF YOU DON'T COLLECT) |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:00:06 PM
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Call me at my office. 707-744-9353. I will tell you and the original poster the same thing. It's disgusting that brokers will act this way and it's why we don't trust you and it's why brokers get painted with a broad brush.
I'm not hoping anything bad happens to the original poster. I just hope he has to pay for services rendered. |
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:02:23 PM
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| I am going to start a car repair company, do crappy work, and demand full payment. I'll call it the "HOPLAND" model of doing business! |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:03:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by neversaynever
PRAISE THE LORD, THANK YOU BANKER, I AM NOT ALONE
and FINISH THAT QUOTE HOPLAND, I SAID
" If you do bill us you get paid when we close. "
(A RATIONAL PERSON TAKE STHIS AS I AM NOT PAYING YOU UNLESS IT CLOSES IF YOU DON'T COLLECT)
If the appraiser accepted those terms then it would be an ethical violation (fee contingent upon the outcome of the appraisal.) It's even more disgusting that a broker would try to send a loan off to a lender knowing that the payment arrangements violated FIRREA and USPAP. |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:05:38 PM
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You haven't explained what was "crappy" about the appraisal.
You wouldn't say it IN PERSON.
Sure I would. |
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:06:26 PM
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| I said that to her to let her know I would not pay unless the loan closed, the vlaue was at 60% I wasn't pushing that, you do just love assuming the worst about every broker...... |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:08:08 PM
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quote:
I said that to her to let her know I would not pay unless the loan closed,
Wow! You just said it again. |
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dgreco3
1959 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:09:02 PM
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| your name on the order, you're on the hook |
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:11:39 PM
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hmmmm i need to double check the order, my name may not appear on it.
Why is it illegal for me to tell her she only gets paid if the loan closes, if I meant nothing but that and was NOT compelling her to hit any value, never even gave her a number because we had equity. |
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ninji
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:24:14 PM
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I agree with Hopeland. i just wouldn't put it in his words. another thing and very HELPFUL point he made, "You offered to settle the debt and she declined, so now she won't get a penny from you. If it goes to small claims, she won't be able to provide an invoice authorization signed by you (hopefully) and you will win the case". In this market my friend, and i dont know how long youve been in it, the broker is always to blame. We just have to prove our knowledge by using our experiences and wit to be respected. You should know when to hold yoiur tounge when explaining something to a client. Never tell the client to bill you. YOU are the one offering a service to the client not vise versa.
And HOPELAND try giving advise. Think about it. |
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:27:54 PM
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Thanks for the insight, what if I didn't sign anything?
Also, I didn't tlel the borrower to bill us, he simply told the appraiser to and she obliged so to not loose the order. |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:32:16 PM
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The only advise I would give is to pay the appraiser for the services rendered. If you don't like the services don't order any more services from that appraiser. A deal's a deal.
Why is it illegal for me to tell her she only gets paid if the loan closes
I didn't post that it was "illegal" for you to tell her that. It does violate the ethics rule of USPAP if she accepts the assignment under those conditions. If the appraiser is acting unethically and you know it you have probably violated the agreements you have made with the lender as a condition of approval. An appraiser who's compensation is dependent upon the favorable outcome of the appraisal is no longer unbiased. |
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ninji
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:37:13 PM
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Then Both the appraiser and the brorrower is lying..?...
dont answer that. its ritorical.
Just watch yourself next time you try to pull another deal. Clients hear and listen to what they want to hear, so try to eliminate that by telling them what they cant avoid hearing (the truth) There are many deals out there to be made my friend, take a breather and figure out your next step, which should be to make a call to the apopraisers attorney's office to settle and let them know that you attempted to settle. |
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philinpdx
635 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:38:35 PM
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"just an appraiser" LMAO... them is fightin' words!!!
I'm certainly not on the 'side' of the appraiser. However, I think in general unless the service was really bad, if you place an order you can't say you'll only pay if the loan closes as that does seem to out of compliance.
However, generally I've always both told the appraiser verbally AND specified on the appraisal "Client will pay COD at door" so it is clear to the appraiser that the borrower is paying.
nversaynever, if you leave it open to the appraiser that they 'don't have to collect at the door' then you're leaving yourself liable to pay for it at the end of the day one way or the other.
Although if you REALLLY think you've got a case for it being a 'bad appraisal' you could try and counter, but honestly, don't you think you're going to put out more money and time vs the value of trying to save a few bucks?
I understand that maybe the point of the matter is more important to you than saving a few hundred bucks. But, at what price is it going to cost you in time & money to make that point? I'd think paying for the appraisal, cutting your losses & moving on would better serve you. |
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:39:41 PM
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| Can yu just not respond to threads asking for advice when you only want to drive some ideological stake through MB's hearts, were suffering too! |
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ninji
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:42:15 PM
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| By the way the truth is the Laws and Rules of the Department of Finance. (or more recently The Department) |
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ninji
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:49:33 PM
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Phil,
I like your style. i think youve got a big case of miscommunication neversaynever and miscommunication can lead to licenses being revoked and someone going to jail for up to 5 years with a 50k fine. So please take my advise if youve had any tonight; Watch what you say, keep it Truthful and you will make lots of money. |
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ninji
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:50:38 PM
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| ninji Out! |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:54:58 PM
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I didn't respond to drive a stake through your heart. You asked for advise and my advise was to pay the appraiser and take it as a lesson learned. You can't make the appraisal fee dependent on whether or not the loan closes. Part of the confusion with this is that while the appraiser can agree to wait on the close of the loan to get paid there must also be an agreement to get paid even if the loan does not close. otherwise they have violated USPAP and falsely signed the certifications in the appraisal report. Read any appraisal report you have lying around. Go to the 3 pages of "boilerplate" at the end of the report. Refer to Item #18. By signing the appraisal report the appraiser has certified their compliance with that statement.
If you don't want to look at a report it says:
18. My employment and/or compensation for performing this appraisal or any future or anticipated appraisals was not conditioned on any agreement or understanding, written or otherwise, that I would report (or present analysis supporting) a predetermined specific value, a predetermined minimum value, a range or direction in value, a value that favors the cause of any party, or the attainment of a specific result or occurance of a subsequent event (such as approval of a pending mortgage loan application).
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philinpdx
635 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 11:02:27 PM
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| Hopland does have a point I think is valid. Sorry you had a bad experience, but maybe taking as a lesson learned is the best you can get out of this situation. IMHO |
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 11:12:09 PM
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| So maybe on paper she was shady enough to look due her money, great, thats why IM ASKING ADVICE! Do you think you telling me that you hope I get pounded up the rear with legal fines reallly was what I was looking for??? No your just a jerk, please dont ever respnd to any of my questions/thoughts again. |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 11:23:47 PM
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My apologies for coming out swinging. In your first post you wrote:
quote:
Ding, i get mail and from a lawyer respresting some appraiser that didn't get paid.
as if it was inconsequential that "some appraiser" did not get paid for their work. This pushed my buttons because it has happened to me, several times. It has happened to my father and to my brother. It has happened to my friends Randy, Denis, Lisa, Sandy, Matt, and Jeff. It has happened to hundreds of appraisers who post about it on appraisersforum and I'm sure it's happened to thousands across the country.
I was being mean to make sure you got the point so that you will have an easier time doing business in the future. Make sure ALL your ducks are in a row before faxing an appraisal order.
Good luck. I wish you well. |
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KHufford
5108 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 11:43:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hopland
I didn't respond to drive a stake through your heart. You asked for advise and my advise was to pay the appraiser and take it as a lesson learned. You can't make the appraisal fee dependent on whether or not the loan closes. Part of the confusion with this is that while the appraiser can agree to wait on the close of the loan to get paid there must also be an agreement to get paid even if the loan does not close. otherwise they have violated USPAP and falsely signed the certifications in the appraisal report. Read any appraisal report you have lying around. Go to the 3 pages of "boilerplate" at the end of the report. Refer to Item #18. By signing the appraisal report the appraiser has certified their compliance with that statement.
If you don't want to look at a report it says:
18. My employment and/or compensation for performing this appraisal or any future or anticipated appraisals was not conditioned on any agreement or understanding, written or otherwise, that I would report (or present analysis supporting) a predetermined specific value, a predetermined minimum value, a range or direction in value, a value that favors the cause of any party, or the attainment of a specific result or occurance of a subsequent event (such as approval of a pending mortgage loan application).
Hopeland is correct. You cannot make an appraisal payment due only if a loan closes, thats not their fault.
But good ethical appraisers will usually notify you ahead of time if there are issues they know full well will kill the deal, such as an empty pool or something.
Its not an apprasers fault to notice if the door knobs are brushed nickel or if solar powered, yes they shoud report it in the report but they would think it would probably be an issue.
Just one of those cases where you really needed the lady to pay upfront it happens guys!! Out of 20 appraisals 1 or 2 come back with issues you cannot fix! So if you ALWAYS pay appraisals at COE you are running that risk.
COST of doing biz!
I know guys who scratch checks for thousdands of dollars in unused appraisals for all sorts of reasons, but they just do it to keep the clients/ realtors happy. CODB.
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 11:49:55 PM
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| yea, i just don't like how any of this unfolded, just seems like the rules should be different |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 11:52:15 PM
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quote:
usually notify you ahead of time if there are issues they know full well will kill the deal, such as an empty pool or something.
That's what I do. But not everything kills a deal. I let the client know about major problems and ask how they want to proceed. |
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racerx
11051 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 11:52:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hopland
It's disgusting that brokers will act this way and it's why we don't trust you and it's why brokers get painted with a broad brush.
While I understand your frustration, it does not justify making rude remarks
or improperly passing judgement on others who aren't even involved.
Wouldn't this have been a better reply:
OP, as the loan officer you are the one who placed the order
and you are responsible for payment. It's a tough lesson to learn,
but you did make mistakes. First, you should always let your borrowers
know that regardless of the outcome, the appraiser MUST be paid if the
service is rendered. Always have your borrowers pay at the door and
also confirm with the appraiser that he is to collect the fee up front.
It ***** when we make mistakes like this, but that's how we learn.
You can try to talk to the borrower to see if he will pay, but most
likely this will just have to be an expensive, but valuable, lesson.
By the way, neversaynever, line of m's is quite irritating.
I didn't read most of the thread because having to scroll back and forth
is just plain annoying. |
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 11:54:00 PM
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| I'm only polite during certain hours of the day. It's past my bedtime so I was rude. |
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racerx
11051 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 11:56:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hopland
I'm only polite during certain hours of the day. It's past my bedtime so I was rude.
I completely understand. I was pretty rude, too,
but I refrained from posting my original thoughts. =) |
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rsaunders
324 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 12:01:14 AM
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I love how the LO had no clue about the solar power and then blamed it on the appraiser ... 
Why is it that loan officers and reps can't ask simple questions about the COLLATERAL for the loan? I have had no less than 5 properties in the last twp weeks that were completely different than what the LO/AE stated in their appraisal order.
Here's a clue - pull the local property records, interview the borrower regarding what's actually on the property and if it's something atypical - warn the appraiser! Not that difficult ...
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Hopland
1803 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 12:02:14 AM
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If I had posted a wimpy reply like your example I would have just been ignored as "some appraiser."
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neversaynever
1020 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 12:06:06 AM
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sigh my issue was I basically told her to collect and that I didn't want to be responsible, but she took ut upon her self to MAKE me responsible with calling me and telling me.
You know what "I love" I love how you completely overlook that aspect and jump to the appraiser's defense, |
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philinpdx
635 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 12:06:11 AM
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LOL... That funny remark someone made earlier was pretty funny... something like 'don't worry he's 'just an appraiser...' LMAO
Occupation-centric I guess is what we could call it eh? It's a common disease regardless of what profession we get into. We all need to work together though and I think mutual respect gets the job done best personally. |
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rsaunders
324 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 12:07:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hopland
If I had posted a wimpy reply like your example I would have just been ignored as "some appraiser."
Yeah, but you're still competing for broker biz and I'm a corporate shill ... |
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philinpdx
635 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 12:11:22 AM
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Yeah but you also did state you also told the appraiser that "if she didn't collect at door she could collect at closing".... Didn't you say that?
With that kind of communication you did leave yourself open to the appraiser expecting you to pay. The advice that more of one of us seem to be recommending is to MAKE IT CRYSTAL CLEAR that the appraiser is to be paid COD by borrower and confirm it with borrower.
If that's on the appraisal order then perhaps you wouldn't have this problem. I don't mean to be rude in belaboring the point but I think it would be helpful for you to be clear on that.
Additionally, if you don't make clear arrangements for borrower to pay at door then you also can't say you'll only pay 'if the loan closes'.
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racerx
11051 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 12:15:41 AM
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I think he was calling my response wimpy. I prefer to
think of it as constructive.
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rsaunders
324 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 12:16:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by neversaynever
sigh my issue was I basically told her to collect and that I didn't want to be responsible, but she took ut upon her self to MAKE me responsible with calling me and telling me.
You know what "I love" I love how you completely overlook that aspect and jump to the appraiser's defense,
How can you order a report from an outside source and not be "responsible"? This is EXACTLY why Fannie/Freddie are now forced to bypass mortgage brokers in the appraisal ordering chain.
Seriously, a property off the grid and you want to pretend that you have no clue? And the appraiser you hired FORCED you to be responsible?
Pay the appraiser and hope she doesn't pursue it ... |
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